Differences between Russian and Japanese Judo?

[zheka]

If Judo has to be taught in most effective and competitive way, Japanese still got it. 'cause their judo IS the most effective, Look at Olympics game.

At Sidney 2000 : Japan 4G -2S -2B , France 2G-2S-2B.. then China, Cuba , Italy ...
Russia only 11th with 1S -3B

At Athens 2004: Japan 8G - 2S , Cuba 1S - 5B ... then China and Russia 4th 2S-3B

Russian and Est Europian are very good in Judo, but not better then French, Cuban and Chinese . Japanese are still the best overall.

And who do you think taught Judo to Cubans??? Second, you need to check USSR's judo records

 

[Jamesnewaza]

Russian (and European) judo is usually more Strenght based, It look like wrestling sometimes. This is more Godo (Hard way) then Judo (gentle way).
At Olympic level some athletes try with Strenght(natural or given by the doping) to compensate technical gap.

Japanese Judo is way more technical, they spend a lot of time in training Judo and less in "bodybuilding".

Look the Judogi in the competitions Japanese prefer durable and comfortable ones like Mizuno Yawara , the others prefer hard grip Gi like Dax Moskito o Mizuno Eurocop 'cause they try to have an advantage to they challengers.

I like best the Traditional way. If I do Judo is because I like grappling not bodybuilding.
I don't like very much the Jusport and it's rules (Mainly standup, Ippon even with uncontrolled Throws).

Hello by european judo do you mean nations like France and Britian or eastern european nations ?

 

[j123]

I sometimes wonder if it (changes)had to do with their size. Russians are generally bigger and when I watch judo the smaller weights seem to be more technical and larger guys more power and forcing due to less agility.

But they're with their own weight classes, 60kgs are going against other 60kgs, etc

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Havent seen this thread before.

I wonder how many people from the original discussion are still around and if they have changed their opinion
Judo in Japan is trained WITHOUT any weight categories, which forces the practitioners to train extensively in perfecting their timing and positioning, relying heavily on speed.
Only categories used in Japan are dan separated.
The only weight categories japanese use, are in international competitions.

The rest of the world trains with weight categories, so chances are, every player will be facing equally heavy, strong and skillful opponent. There is no dan separation in international judo competitions.
That changes the strategy and the preparation.

As in every sport- every country is trying to develop its own crops of athletes and introduce new techniques within the ruleset, expanding the diversity of the sport.
But when the same principle is applied in Judo, all of a sudden, some people think thats not pure Judo

Here is an example- in wrestling, there would be entire new chapters, known as Russian Tie, Iranian Hook, which are widely studied and used globally, but I have yet to see a Judo place, outside of East Europe, teaching Georgian Grip. It is widely seen as "dirty judo".
Why?
Maybe because in wrestling, nobody is trying to emphasize on cultural aspect, over technical skills. Nobody cares how you enter the mat or ceremonies of bowing, belt tying and etc.The only etiquette required is to be socially mannered.
While in judo, indifferent of which part of the world it is practiced, its expected from the judokas to act like japanese.
Im not saying this as a bad thing- japanese are very well mannered people.
But trying to fit a professional sport in a cultural mold is weird, unnecessary and counterproductive as sport progression, which result is, that today japanese judo got left behind the curve.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Havent seen this thread before.

I wonder how many people from the original discussion are still around and if they have changed their opinion
Judo in Japan is trained WITHOUT any weight categories, which forces the practitioners to train extensively in perfecting their timing and positioning, relying heavily on speed.
Only categories used in Japan are dan separated.
The only weight categories japanese use, are in international competitions.

The rest of the world trains with weight categories, so chances are, every player will be facing equally heavy, strong and skillful opponent. There is no dan separation in international judo competitions.
That changes the strategy and the preparation.

As in every sport- every country is trying to develop its own crops of athletes and introduce new techniques within the ruleset, expanding the diversity of the sport.
But when the same principle is applied in Judo, all of a sudden, some people think thats not pure Judo

Here is an example- in wrestling, there would be entire new chapters, known as Russian Tie, Iranian Hook, which are widely studied and used globally, but I have yet to see a Judo place, outside of East Europe, teaching Georgian Grip. It is widely seen as "dirty judo".
Why?
Maybe because in wrestling, nobody is trying to emphasize on cultural aspect, over technical skills. Nobody cares how you enter the mat or ceremonies of bowing, belt tying and etc.The only etiquette required is to be socially mannered.
While in judo, indifferent of which part of the world it is practiced, its expected from the judokas to act like japanese.
Im not saying this as a bad thing- japanese are very well mannered people.
But trying to fit a professional sport in a cultural mold is weird, unnecessary and counterproductive as sport progression, which result is, that today japanese judo got left behind the curve.

Although I don't agree 100% with your last point, a very interesting post indeed.

I've never really compared judo to other sports, in the sense that others might not force the values of a certain culture.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Havent seen this thread before.

I wonder how many people from the original discussion are still around and if they have changed their opinion
Judo in Japan is trained WITHOUT any weight categories, which forces the practitioners to train extensively in perfecting their timing and positioning, relying heavily on speed.
Only categories used in Japan are dan separated.
The only weight categories japanese use, are in international competitions.

The rest of the world trains with weight categories, so chances are, every player will be facing equally heavy, strong and skillful opponent. There is no dan separation in international judo competitions.
That changes the strategy and the preparation.

As in every sport- every country is trying to develop its own crops of athletes and introduce new techniques within the ruleset, expanding the diversity of the sport.
But when the same principle is applied in Judo, all of a sudden, some people think thats not pure Judo

Here is an example- in wrestling, there would be entire new chapters, known as Russian Tie, Iranian Hook, which are widely studied and used globally, but I have yet to see a Judo place, outside of East Europe, teaching Georgian Grip. It is widely seen as "dirty judo".
Why?
Maybe because in wrestling, nobody is trying to emphasize on cultural aspect, over technical skills. Nobody cares how you enter the mat or ceremonies of bowing, belt tying and etc.The only etiquette required is to be socially mannered.
While in judo, indifferent of which part of the world it is practiced, its expected from the judokas to act like japanese.
Im not saying this as a bad thing- japanese are very well mannered people.
But trying to fit a professional sport in a cultural mold is weird, unnecessary and counterproductive as sport progression, which result is, that today japanese judo got left behind the curve.

100%

 

[mataleaos]

The Russians came in and dominated bringing several aspects to the game. Their psoture was less upright and more low almost like a wrestling stance. They had a lot of pickup style techniques. So they were heavy into double legs and fireman carries. Te gurumas. They were big on gripping the belt. So for harai goshi or uchi mata, maybe instead of gripping the collar or the lapel, they'd reach over the back and grab the belt. They had some great ground fighting and armbars. A lot more armmbars than what was happening at the time.

There is more than just a technical difference between the two. The two have fundamentally different approaches. Russian Judo is more pragmatic than Japanese Judo. It's aim is to win the match. It doesn't have the same taboos & hangups that Japanese Judo has. The Russian Judo attitude is if you can grab the pants/belt for 5 seconds, why not grab it? Why not use your natural attributes if they give you an advantage? If you're less likely to get thrown from a particular stance, why not stand in it? . It has a fundamentally different ethos to Japenese Judo. From that different ethos came a different view on things, a different approach to solving classical judo problems. Without constraining taboos different solutions to these problems emerged. These solutions are the techniques which most people associate with Russian Judo, but they are only the consequence of what is a very different philosophy on judo.

The Russian Judo Masterclass book has a great piece on evolution of "Russian" judo. I think someone posted it here before, if anyone can find it.

yeah those masterclass books are awesome. I think they're harder to find now but if you can get your hands on any of them you should do it.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I'd like to throw out that it's really a dumb denigration of Russian style Judo to say it's more power oriented than Japanese Judo. I don't really think that's the case. The gripping is focused more on breaking posture prior to the throw, but that actually makes the throw require less power in many cases than the sleeve + lapel version. I'm not a very strong person for my weight class, I could never generate the pull and posture break necessary to throw good people with a lapel and sleeve grip, but as soon as I started working more on getting belt grips and over the back grips I found I needed a lot less strength to control people and throw them. It's simply more mechanically efficient to keep someone's posture broken to be resting a lot of your bodyweight via an over the back belt grip on them than it is to do it by pulling them down by a single point of contact on their lapel. Lapel grips have other advantages, mainly flexibility in which throws you have available, but they're far from optimal compared to belt grips for big turning throws. People say that style is a power style because it requires less subtle kusuzhi once you have the grip, and that's true. But the reason your kuzushi can be less subtle is because your gripping is more efficient for transferring power and pulling off hip throws (or big reaps).

Even the pickups and ura nages you see Eastern Bloc players using are not really power moves in the sense that you have to have a ton of power to use them, it's not that hard to pick someone your own weight up if you use good technique, but it can't be done efficiently from a classical grip. The fact that uke feels so helpless once you lock in the strong belt grips doesn't mean it's a power move, it means it's an efficient means of controlling uke's balance. So the thing isn't power vs. no power, it's where you apply power. Russian style, you're using power to attain your dominating grip and then the throw is easy. Japanese style, you take a very standard grip but then the throws often require tremendous power to pull off unless you hit them perfectly.

 

[mungos]

Actually, I have found some of Japanese and Korean judoka in international competitions hard to watch.
Numerous matches with only one hand on lapel that prevents effective two handed grip - stalling.
Lots of judoka spamming seoi from the knees witch is impossible to counter.
Cardio, grip fighting and uchi comi are top notch on all of them.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Judo in Japan is trained WITHOUT any weight categories, which forces the practitioners to train extensively in perfecting their timing and positioning, relying heavily on speed.
Only categories used in Japan are dan separated.
The only weight categories japanese use, are in international competitions.

Your information is about a half-century out of date, I'm afraid. The Japanese have weight class competition at every level. Even the famously open weight All Japan has had a sister-competition, with weight classes, since the 60's.

 

[Thrawn33]

Throwing my 2 pennies in.

Kano JJ was about what worked. Yes technique over strength and all that...great goal to strive to (see old Mifune)....but when you look at historically successful Judoka (Mifune included)...they were still some hard motherfuckers.

The only gentle thing about Judo was that you were taught how to take a fall so that your partner who was expected to throw you at 100% would probably not kill or permanently maim you. It still hurt.

The whole Kano was against lifting...strength...blah blah blah....explain Daki Age....a technique designed to POWERBOMB, Rampage style, people with poor Triangle (sankaku jime) technique, to prevent unrealistic application of technique.

Kano Jiujitsu (real Judo) was closer to MMA and the old school GJJ than it is to modern Judo and BJJ.

Probably why I feel at home training at a Royce affiliate that starts rolls standing and doesn't frown on me standing up when I can from the ground (if they want it there they can try to keep it there)

As an old pre-BS Judoka former wrestler having all of my options for TDs being allowed and encouraged is soooo satisfying.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Your information is about a half-century out of date, I'm afraid. The Japanese have weight class competition at every level. Even the famously open weight All Japan has had a sister-competition, with weight classes, since the 60's.

I live in Japan and compete several times a year

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Although I don't agree 100% with your last point, a very interesting post indeed.

I've never really compared judo to other sports, in the sense that others might not force the values of a certain culture.

It is weird to try to get people to act out of their culture. Its even weirder to judge their sport performance (which is perfectly within the ruleset) from the point of view of a very specific culture, like the japanese one.
And I find it ridiculous, when it applies to Olympic sport.

Such behavior exists in TKD, BJJ, I have even seen Sambo practitioners keeping high interest in Russian culture and learning the language for no particular reason, but I haven't seen someone been scolded, because he passed guard in unBrazilian way, hence he was using "dirty technique and power"

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Look at judo competitions before 2nd WW.
Quite all the Ippon were from "clear" Seoinage, Hanegoshi, Osotogari, Uchimata etc

After the introduction of Sambo in Judo competition, the ippon become something that seems a Kataguruma, something that seems Tani otoshi, something that seem... and so on. A lot of Sutemi doing just to slam ur opponent down (often without any form of controll )

Technique like Ashi guruma are studied less than in past, cause they are "very" difficult to be "effectives". But when u have the technique to do it with timing u can take an ippon without using strenght.

But it's easier for competition to build up a phisically stronger Athletes that can use his strenght to lift the opponent in a "dirty" kataguruma instead of get a perfect Ashi guruma.

Modern Judo is technically poor in comparison to old Judo, but it's more physical.

Actually couldnt you power in an Ashi Guruma too?

 

[MadSquabbles500]

If Judo has to be taught in most effective and competitive way, Japanese still got it. 'cause their judo IS the most effective, Look at Olympics game.

At Sidney 2000 : Japan 4G -2S -2B , France 2G-2S-2B.. then China, Cuba , Italy ...
Russia only 11th with 1S -3B

At Athens 2004: Japan 8G - 2S , Cuba 1S - 5B ... then China and Russia 4th 2S-3B

Russian and Est Europian are very good in Judo, but not better then French, Cuban and Chinese . Japanese are still the best overall.

The chinese? Have their men ever medaled? It seems the soviet union had success in judo, but many of their judoka are one of the ethnic minorities that may have gotten their starts in some indigenous jacket or no jacket styles.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Oh man I did not realize this thread is that old.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

I live in Japan and compete several times a year

So, did I misunderstand your original post? Or do the Japanese just put results of their weight classed tournaments on the internet as a joke to fool gullible westerners?

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

So, did I misunderstand your original post? Or do the Japanese just put results of their weight classed tournaments on the internet as a joke to fool gullible westerners?

Id say its a tournament with some weight classes As exception.
The norm is no weight categories. All Kodokan tournaments, dan grading tournaments, city/ regional/ national championships I have been were run that way.
No bad feelings, but you will find a lot of bullshit online, regarding martial arts in Japan. I have seen plenty of websites stating japanese color belt system in judo, when in reality there are only white and black belts.
I would be more than happy to show you Kodokan competition lists, where more than 200 people are lined in East and West direct elimination divisions.
No weight categories.
Have posted videos here as well...

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

So, did I misunderstand your original post? Or do the Japanese just put results of their weight classed tournaments on the internet as a joke to fool gullible westerners?

Just checked the link- as expected, its listed in the name of the tournament it self JOC OLYMPIC JUNIOR CUP WITH WEIGHT CLASSES, which means judo with international rules.
If japanese need to mention that the tournament has weight classes, that means what?

It's actually very rare format
Like the pre IJF leg grab ban formats, which are sporadically held in Japan.
If I post here result "ippon by teguruma" from last year tournament in Japan, would that be a ground to declare japanese allow leg grabs?
Of course no.

I don't know for what reason you are trying to prove me wrong, but believe me, you will fail.
My coach is the boss of Osaka Judo Council and I can post here the entire library of Kodokan, regarding results of competitions and results.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Kohaku shiai being common doesn't mean they don't have weight class competition as well. As I pointed out above, all the national competitions (kids/universities/seniors) all exist in both weight class and no-weight-class formats.

I don't know for what reason you are trying to prove me wrong, but believe me, you will fail.
My coach is the boss of Osaka Judo Council and I can post here the entire library of Kodokan, regarding results of competitions and results.

You overstated for rhetorical effect and, this being the internet, I'd rather not see incorrect information stand unchallenged till it gets repeated as gospel fact 400 times. I'm not sure why you're taking it so personally.