Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Shadowdean, Jan 18, 2006.
Are there any significant differences between Russian and Japanese Judo? If so, what?
From what I understand, Russian judo typically uses more wrestling style takedowns and strength moves. In the past, many judo traditionalists frowned upon wrestling style moves, favoring high flying throws. Russian judo players' success in competition forced them to re-think that idea.
Russian (and European) judo is usually more Strenght based, It look like wrestling sometimes. This is more Godo (Hard way) then Judo (gentle way).
At Olympic level some athletes try with Strenght(natural or given by the doping) to compensate technical gap.
Japanese Judo is way more technical, they spend a lot of time in training Judo and less in "bodybuilding".
Look the Judogi in the competitions Japanese prefer durable and comfortable ones like Mizuno Yawara , the others prefer hard grip Gi like Dax Moskito o Mizuno Eurocop 'cause they try to have an advantage to they challengers.
I like best the Traditional way. If I do Judo is because I like grappling not bodybuilding.
I don't like very much the Jusport and it's rules (Mainly standup, Ippon even with uncontrolled Throws).
Very cool. I know wrestling influenced judo in russia...it is interesting that the japanese have resisted it. Are there any "general" differences in how they exicute the traditional throws?
ah! those silly meathead russians!
Posture and grips, that's the general difference. The Japanese are upright, and grip up front. The Russians bend over and grip over the back a lot. They seem to use the belt more too. Throws are widely the same, except the russians use a bit more pickups. But Osoto, Uchimata, Harai and Seoi's still rule, even in Russia.
Also, it's dumb to say there's less technique involved. A small russian champ could toss you just as well as a small Japanese champ. Technique is not about being pretty, it's about being effective.
Another thing I've noticed about Russian Judoka is that they prefer armlocks much more than Japanese players. A friend of mine (A Chinese Judo blackbelt who started with sambo) speculates that a lot of Russian judoka trained in Sambo as well as Judo at some point, and since chokes are outlawed in sport sambo and leglocks are forbidden in Judo armlocks are the common ground they share in newaza. Therefore training armbars in sambo will aid your Judo armbars while training chokes helps your sambo naught at all
I know Fedor is a black belt and competes often in Sambo, he a black belt in Judo too, and competes in Judo as well??
Fedor first was a Judo guy. He reached the 3rd places in nationals and won some international tournament (one was the Hamburg Open i think ). Then Started with Combat Sambo , where he won the World Championship.
To Answer to [Also, it's dumb to say there's less technique involved. A small russian champ could toss you just as well as a small Japanese champ. Technique is not about being pretty, it's about being effective.]
Not only Russian but also Italian (my country) and other European have a technique that is in general "poor" compared to Japanese one.
In Sport competitions Technique is not the total pack, so a Throws that used a lot of Strenght (like wrestling one) is very effective to take Ippon, but Judo is not Strenght vs Strenght.
U can win in Judo with Go (hard ) or with real Ju (flexibility).
Ju is the flexible or efficient use of balance, leverage, and movement in the performance of Judo throws and other skills. Skill, technique and timing, rather than the use of brute strength, are the essential ingredients for success in Judo
Japanese usually have a better Judo. Nowadays Jusport (olympic judo) after the "contamination" with Sambo and Wrestling had introduced some aspect that weren't in original Kano jujitsu.
Original Judo = 80% technique + 20 physical ability
Jusport = 50% Technique + 50% physical ability (Sometimes even more strenght then technique)
It would be a great honor to be tossed by a Russian or a Japanese or also an Italian Champ ^_^
Wrestling is not about strength. Wrestling is as much about technique as Judo. If this wasn't the case, all wrestlers would need to do to be good at their sports is to lift weights. But they practice as much technique as we do in Judo.
You think it is only strength because you have never wrestled.
There is more than just a technical difference between the two. The two have fundamentally different approaches. Russian Judo is more pragmatic than Japanese Judo. It's aim is to win the match. It doesn't have the same taboos & hangups that Japanese Judo has. The Russian Judo attitude is if you can grab the pants/belt for 5 seconds, why not grab it? Why not use your natural attributes if they give you an advantage? If you're less likely to get thrown from a particular stance, why not stand in it? . It has a fundamentally different ethos to Japenese Judo. From that different ethos came a different view on things, a different approach to solving classical judo problems. Without constraining taboos different solutions to these problems emerged. These solutions are the techniques which most people associate with Russian Judo, but they are only the consequence of what is a very different philosophy on judo.
The Russian Judo Masterclass book has a great piece on evolution of "Russian" judo. I think someone posted it here before, if anyone can find it.
Ohh, I'd love to see that book. I do know that the generally approach to russian training is more direct than the Japanese, at least in my very limited judo experince.
Same here. The masterclass books that I've looked through seemed really comprehensive.
Wrestling probably use the same amount of Strenght and Technique of Olympic Judo (and vice versa), but Judo is not (only) Jusport.
Wrestling (free style & greco roman) is a sport , Judo is a martial art that developed a sport (but not every judoka study for competition).
In Olympic Games u can see a lot of athletes Phisically strong and well build, but with less technique ('cause they usually have 20-30 years) respect to an 50-60 years old Sensei who dedicated his entire life to Judo.
To win in Sport Judo u have to be Strong and Very good in the part of it u can use in Competition.
If u are a lot of stronger then ur opponent, u can lift him and smash him and probably get an Ippon. But That Wasnt Judo at all.
U can be a great judoka even if ur phisically weak (Look at Mifune sensei doing randori at 70) but u can't win High level competition, 'cause Technique is only a part of the Pack.
I think I agree with Thalion.
Not saying that you don't need skill for wrestling, but you do use strength (and why not ? there's nothing wrong with that). Whereas original judo's philosophy was more like "use as little strength as possible". So maybe japanese judo didn't use moves that, while effective, demanded some strength. And the russian put these moves back into judo.
Russian Judo is basically the term used to describe the first Sambo guys that entered the Olympics.
It is Sambo moulded to fit into Judo rules.
Pretty much agree with Thalion. I trained under a Japanese instructor and moves like double leg and single leg were frowned upon. They are very much legal techniques, but rely more on strength than timing, as opposed to Japanese style Judo. Technique is always important, but a lot of the Japanese style involves catching the opponent in transition. Many throws absolutely will NOT work if the uke is in a slightly different position or at a different speed, so timing is most important. Wrestling type throws are easier to apply as far as timing wise. A single leg wil work just as well whether opponent is moving or standing still. Not so with "true/japanese" judo....
More upright stance as opposed to european more bent over stance.
I personally think that a lot of this "wrestling/sambo/russian judo is more about brute strength that classical judo" is simply not true.
Those who have roots in the classic judo or learn that style, when faced with moves that they cannot counter and do not understand the mechanics underlying them will often write them off as "brute strength", just like everyone who has never done Judo thinks it
Look at judo competitions before 2nd WW.
Quite all the Ippon were from "clear" Seoinage, Hanegoshi, Osotogari, Uchimata etc
After the introduction of Sambo in Judo competition, the ippon become something that seems a Kataguruma, something that seems Tani otoshi, something that seem... and so on. A lot of Sutemi doing just to slam ur opponent down (often without any form of controll )
Technique like Ashi guruma are studied less than in past, cause they are "very" difficult to be "effectives". But when u have the technique to do it with timing u can take an ippon without using strenght.
But it's easier for competition to build up a phisically stronger Athletes that can use his strenght to lift the opponent in a "dirty" kataguruma instead of get a perfect Ashi guruma.
Modern Judo is technically poor in comparison to old Judo, but it's more physical.
Thalion, please come up with better arguments than "it isn't as beautiful".
You know who Isao Inokuma is, right? If not then educate yourself and read some of his thoughts from the book "BEST Judo". There he talks about how there are wannabes who think that with excellent tehnique no strenght is needed and says that isn't true at all. If Inokuma hast stated that, why should anyone listen to you? I really am getting heated up here after reading your posts and dissing everything that judo competition has adapted over the years of its existence. I call it elitism and narrow-mindedness.
What on earth is the purpose of sutemi-waza if not to slam the opponent to the ground? And without control? Pft. And sure, if you want to master ashi-guruma then go ahead, no-one is stopping you. The cold fact just happens to be that there is only one effective way to execute it and to do it to an opponent of a same size requires a lot of strenght.
Kata-o-toshi (the technique you describe as "something that looks like kata-guruma") requires a lot of technique. To execute it one must kneel exactly at the right time. Your arguments are terrible, really.
Darwinist and cojofl, you bring light to this thread.
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