Deadlift Critique

[mrsneakyz28]

I hate to threadjack but I can I get a form check with my low quality vid.

 

[PCP]

and I suppose bball players shouldn't listen to Bob Knight, Pat Riley or Phil Jackson because those guys were average players at best

These coaches were great because they trained great athletes. Name one elite lifter or athlete that Mark Rippetoe has trained.

 

[Origins]

Rippetoe is a great coach in my opinion, but his word isn't gospel. The fact that Rip says something doesn't make that any kind of substantial evidence in an argument. He explains in the book his reasons for recommending looking down as well as squatting low-bar, squatting deep, starting the deadlift with scapulas over the bar, etc.

You should be able to explain and understand why you do the things you do without having to resort to "Rippetoe says so" as the only way to defend your stance.

 

[Morganation]

I have started to look about a few feet ahead of me and my deadlift has been improving ever since.

 

[FiveFeezy]

You know what, people need to get off Rippetoe's dick. Mark Rippetoe was never a great lifter. In the powerlifting and oly world he was average at best. He gets way too much credit. I have been training for about 4 years and I am already closing in on his lifetime bests. And honestly, I fucking suck.

I'm not on anyone's dick. When one try's to prove a point they often cite credible sources. Mark Rippetoe is a more credible source on this subject than almost everyone on this forum, including you and I. Who is stronger gives no indication as to who is more knowledgeable on the subject.

I don't agree with everything Rippetoe says. For example, I do not follow his advice on where my shoulders should be in relation to the bar on the deadlift setup.

I do agree with him on where I should be looking. If you are looking up you are putting unnecessary stress on your neck while trying to move very heavy weight. If you look down, your chest is most likely not up enough. If you are looking forward and slightly down, perfect. This is how I lift and it works for me.

 

[enright3060]

PCP - what is your best competitive total?

 

[MASShole]

Weight lifted != intelligence or practical knowledge. I can't believe that has to be said.

 

[PCP]

Weight lifted != intelligence or practical knowledge. I can't believe that has to be said.

If your goal is to lift more weight, would you listen to a guy with a 400 raw bench and a bunch of fancy degrees or a guy with a 600 raw bench who is a construction worker?

PCP - what is your best competitive total?

Is this a dick measuring contest now?

 

[MASShole]

If your goal is to lift more weight, would you listen to a guy with a 400 raw bench and a bunch of fancy degrees or a guy with a 600 raw bench who is a construction worker?

If the guy was Rippetoe, I'd listen to him over the construction worker. I've seen a lot of strong ass motherfuckers despite their training - Brad Cardoza comes to mind. Trains like a fucking idiot, but was one of the best <231lb strongmen in the world.

Is this a dick measuring contest now?

You kinda made it one by comparing your lifts with his.

 

[enright3060]

Is this a dick measuring contest now?

Since you made an issue to shit all over Rip by comparing your lifts to him, I think we should compare apples to apples. Rip has a competitive total. What is yours?

Since you did not answer the question, I'm assuming yours is zero.

 

[ozzie]

 

[PCP]

Since you made an issue to shit all over Rip by comparing your lifts to him, I think we should compare apples to apples. Rip has a competitive total. What is yours?

Since you did not answer the question, I'm assuming yours is zero.

I guess Rippetoe is stronger and smarter than all the 900lb+ benchers or 800+ deadlifters who don't compete in the full power meets, like Shawn Lattimer, Brent Howard and Scott Mendelson, since they don't have a competitive total

 

[theBrookDweller]

These coaches were great because they trained great athletes. Name one elite lifter or athlete that Mark Rippetoe has trained.

i won't lie, I can't. I simply don't know enough about lifting to be able to do so.

What I do know, is that Jim Wendler speaks very highly of Rip and the SS program. If he says that it's a good program and that SS is the best book he's ever read, I would venture to guess that it's a good book on the subject (ie. how to do the lifts).

Also, I'll pose a similar question to you...name coaches who've produced several elite lifters/athletes

EDIT: I will say that I am currently 3 weeks into the SS program and so far it's working. My deadlift has gone up from 225 to 255 (without really long pauses between pulls), squat from 135 to 170, BP from 135 to 150. This is only after 9 workouts. I'm sure these are teh n00b gains but they're working. If what Rip suggests has worked for other people as well then why wouldn't we suggest it?

 

[PCP]

i won't lie, I can't. I simply don't know enough about lifting to be able to do so.

What I do know, is that Jim Wendler speaks very highly of Rip and the SS program. If he says that it's a good program and that SS is the best book he's ever read, I would venture to guess that it's a good book on the subject (ie. how to do the lifts).

Also, I'll pose a similar question to you...name coaches who've produced several elite lifters/athletes
EDIT: I will say that I am currently 3 weeks into the SS program and so far it's working. My deadlift has gone up from 225 to 255 (without really long pauses between pulls), squat from 135 to 170, BP from 135 to 150. This is only after 9 workouts. I'm sure these are teh n00b gains but they're working. If what Rip suggests has worked for other people as well then why wouldn't we suggest it?

Louie Simmons, Clay Brandenburg, Tommy Fannon, Bill Crawford, Danny Dague

I don't see how taking a 225 deadlift to 255 proves anything. You could have made this kind of progress with virtually any program. And that's really the thing about training beginners. You can put them on anything and they will make progress.

 

[Tosa]

The main benefit of starting strength (the book, not the program) is that it does a good job of describing the main lifts, and explaining how to do them correctly in a way a beginner can understand. That said, there are elements of technique, as described in starting strength, that you'll see done differently by other, knowledgable, experienced lifters, like where to look when deadlifting or squatting. These are small issues, and nothing to be concerned about, as long as your not doing something completely stupid like looking left.

I agree there isn't anything special about the starting strength routine itself. It's recomended because of how easy for a complete beginner to do it correctly, it gives plenty of practice with the main lifts and that there's the starting strength book and wiki as a guide if someone gets stuck.

 

[PCP]

The main benefit of starting strength (the book, not the program) is that it does a good job of describing the main lifts, and explaining how to do them correctly in a way a beginner can understand. That said, there are elements of technique, as described in starting strength, that you'll see done differently by other, knowledgable, experienced lifters, like where to look when deadlifting or squatting. These are small issues, and nothing to be concerned about, as long as your not doing something completely stupid like looking left.

I agree there isn't anything special about the starting strength routine itself. It's recomended because of how easy for a complete beginner to do it correctly, it gives plenty of practice with the main lifts and that there's the starting strength book and wiki as a guide if someone gets stuck.

I'm not even worried about the book. It's a decent instructional piece on how to perform the lifts. The thing that bothers me are the morons who repeatedly quote Mark Rippetoe like he is the be-all-end-all authority on all things concerning strength. If he is such a great coach, why has he never trained any strong people? His training programs are mostly common-sense type shit (perform the powerlifts and eat a lot of food, who the fuck would have ever thought of that?) yet he is lauded as some kind of genius by the mindless drones on the internet forums.

 

[Tosa]

I'm not even worried about the book. It's a decent instructional piece on how to perform the lifts. The thing that bothers me are the morons who repeatedly quote Mark Rippetoe like he is the be-all-end-all authority on all things concerning strength. If he is such a great coach, why has he never trained any strong people? His training programs are mostly common-sense type shit (perform the powerlifts and eat a lot of food, who the fuck would have ever thought of that?) yet he is lauded as some kind of genius by the mindless drones on the internet forums.

I agree that there are many other sources of information on lifting, and that Rippetoe is just one of those sources. And it's always good to use more than one source. As for who he has trained, I think that has more to do with just coaching the people who go to the Wichita Falls Athlectic club...it's pragmatic, it's a business, and there are far more beginners to train than elite powerlifters. And, unfortunately a common sense approach to getting stronger isn't necessarily all that common. So it is worth repeating, on occasion...or telling that information to beginners explicitly. So for a beginner, Rippetoe is an excellent source of information, even if it's nothing groundbreaking.

But I do agree that it's annoying when somebody considers something gospel just because it's written in Starting Strength, although I'm not going to blame Rippetoe for this...

...what was this thread about again?

 

[miaou]

If your goal is to lift more weight, would you listen to a guy with a 400 raw bench and a bunch of fancy degrees or a guy with a 600 raw bench who is a construction worker?

You would need to be really dumb not to listen to both. Anyone giving you instructions/recommendations on how to lift should be able to back it up with a specific reasoning. If the opinions between the two differ, then why would you listen to one over the other and not listen to both and use critical thinking to compare their opinions/reasonings?

For the specific argument on head position in the deadlifts, the two positions are "look straight and down to keep your cervical spine in a proper anatomical position while there are significant forces applied to it" and "look straight and up because it encourages an extended thoracic spine which in turn encourages an extended/normal lumbar spine". My common sense tells me that the second explanation is using looking forward/up as a cue to avoid lumbar flexion but also places the cervical spine in a less safe position. By working on your kinesthetic sense and by using cues like "chest out", "scapulae back", "lumbar arch", etc., you can very well control your lumbar and thoracic position without the need for a "look up" cue.

Same thing goes with looking up while squatting btw.

 

[perthmma]

Chin up and work on your hip mobility

 

[speedtech]

If he is such a great coach, why has he never trained any strong people? His training programs are mostly common-sense type shit (perform the powerlifts and eat a lot of food, who the fuck would have ever thought of that?) yet he is lauded as some kind of genius by the mindless drones on the internet forums.

Because his interest is to train untrained novices to put on body mass and *generally* (non-specifically) get stronger? Any potential elite athlete already has very specific performance goals and prodigious talent such that they do much better on specific tailor made programs, i.e. not SS.

For the record, I agree with you on this issue. I have no idea why he sometimes ventures into the realms of talking about diet and nutrition (GOMAD? Is this guy serious?) and conditioning (CV sucks! ) when he doesn't appear to have anywhere near the same amount of expertise in either.

This is his most well documented "success story". Zach's Progress.