Rewatch Cro cop vs Nogueira

[Ludwig von Mises]

Had Fedor not injured himself and fought Cro Cop that night in 2003, I think that 2003 Cro Cop had a better chance at beating 2003 Fedor than 2005 Cro Cop had against 2005 Fedor. At that point in 2003, Cro Cop had never lost in MMA, he'd just annihilated Herring and Igor, he was flying high with all the confidence in the world, he was as fast and explosive as he'd ever be, while Fedor's striking wasn't as sharp, he wouldn't have had the extra two years to study Cro Cop as he watched Cro Cop beat his brother Aleks and their teammate Ibragim Magomedov, and he wouldn't have had the benefit of sharpening his MT with Ernesto Hoost.

It would be interesting to see for sure. Never thought about it from this perspective. The other side of the coin is that the loss to Nog convinced Mirko he needed to sharpen his BJJ and invite Werdum to live with him for 2 years and teach him how to play a tight closed guard and defend from GnP. Without that I think a 2003 Fedor would have fucked him up on the ground. But still a solid perspective and point of discussion.

 

[ryun253]

Big Nog got hit by a freakin bus because he thought it was rabbit and tried to feed it carrots, source uncle Shael.

Only way to stop him is by breaking his bones or knocking him out cold, he a monster

 

[Bullitt68]

It would be interesting to see for sure. Never thought about it from this perspective. The other side of the coin is that the loss to Nog convinced Mirko he needed to sharpen his BJJ and invite Werdum to live with him for 2 years and teach him how to play a tight closed guard and defend from GnP. Without that I think a 2003 Fedor would have fucked him up on the ground. But still a solid perspective and point of discussion.

To be fair, Cro Cop was already pretty good on the ground, as evidenced by how easily he dealt with Sakuraba being on his back a bunch (he was also on his back against Fujita in these early fights before he leveled up his TDD to where he could make Coleman look like he'd never wrestled a day in his life.) I mean, he did spend five minutes in Nog's guard with no trouble. The real question, though, is: Would Fedor have been able to get him to the ground in 2003? His sambo/judo game was such that he wasn't shooting doubles. Fedor needed to get close and lock you up. His performance against Cro Cop was so exceptional in 2005 because he was mixing his excellent striking with clinch work, constantly making Cro Cop move and fear the tie-ups while also throwing bombs at him and landing punch combos and straight-rights. The Fedor that almost got knocked out by Fujita and was winging punches at Goodridge wasn't quite as refined on the feet, and it was his excellent striking that allowed him to fluster Cro Cop and implement his TD game. Granted, however he'd have to win, the smart money is on Fedor winning no matter who's standing across from him. He's the GOAT, after all. But IMO Cro Cop's best chances to have beaten Fedor were either that night in 2003 or the night of Final Conflict 2006, which, AGAIN, Fedor wasn't able to compete in because he broke that same hand.

You're right, though: These "butterfly effect" things change history, and Cro Cop training with Werdum helped both of their careers and set them up for futures that might've looked very different had they never trained together.

 

[wildchild88]

The last generation of HWs is pretty bad, I think mostly due to weight cutting techniques. Poatan would have been a HW back then but he can fight at MW now. There were very few HWs the size of Jones, Gus, Reyes, etc back then.

IMO prime Werdum, JDS, Cain, DC and Stipe would have been very competitive in PRIDE.

This is true.

Current HWs are more like super heavyweights compared to the PRIDE era.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

To be fair, Cro Cop was already pretty good on the ground, as evidenced by how easily he dealt with Sakuraba being on his back a bunch (he was also on his back against Fujita in these early fights before he leveled up his TDD to where he could make Coleman look like he'd never wrestled a day in his life.) I mean, he did spend five minutes in Nog's guard with no trouble. The real question, though, is: Would Fedor have been able to get him to the ground in 2003? His sambo/judo game was such that he wasn't shooting doubles. Fedor needed to get close and lock you up. His performance against Cro Cop was so exceptional in 2005 because he was mixing his excellent striking with clinch work, constantly making Cro Cop move and fear the tie-ups while also throwing bombs at him and landing punch combos and straight-rights. The Fedor that almost got knocked out by Fujita and was winging punches at Goodridge wasn't quite as refined on the feet, and it was his excellent striking that allowed him to fluster Cro Cop and implement his TD game. Granted, however he'd have to win, the smart money is on Fedor winning no matter who's standing across from him. He's the GOAT, after all. But IMO Cro Cop's best chances to have beaten Fedor were either that night in 2003 or the night of Final Conflict 2006, which, AGAIN, Fedor wasn't able to compete in because he broke that same hand.

You're right, though: These "butterfly effect" things change history, and Cro Cop training with Werdum helped both of their careers and set them up for futures that might've looked very different had they never trained together.

I personally think that 2003 was the strongest he ever was and that he would have taken Mirko down and GnPd him. The work Mirko did with Werdum took his game to a whole new level as a defensive grappler. But who knows. Interesting for sure. I think the truth comes down to the fact that both guys had 2 years to sharpen their game in preparation for eachothers strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Bobby Boulders]

I was pretty happy in 99...just look at my fun level lol.

I'd say 98, myself. But 99 was the year I missed 1/3 of the school year bc I was tripping acid all of the time, so it's an acceptable answer.

 

[Bullitt68]

Current HWs are more like super heavyweights compared to the PRIDE era.

They're more like throwbacks to the old days of Jon Hess, Tank Abbott, Gary Goodridge, Paul Varelans, just big fucks who hit hard. The baseline skill level is a bit higher, but it's easier to imagine Derrick Lewis squaring off against Tank Abbott than it is to imagine Leon Edwards fighting Jerry Bohlander. If anything, the HW division has devolved. Even Werdum was from an earlier era. Who in the HW division has impressive, well-rounded skills like Nog's boxing and submissions or Cro Cop's kickboxing and sprawl or Fedor's GOAT-level "I-can-do-everything-better-than-you" arsenal? Jones has lost several steps, Stipe is a grandpa, JDS and Cain have been long gone, Arlovski is a bygone holdover who's also now gone. The UFC HW division hasn't been this bleak since the entire division consisted of Arlovski and Tim Sylvia.

I personally think that 2003 was the strongest he ever was and that he would have taken Mirko down and GnPd him. The work Mirko did with Werdum took his game to a whole new level as a defensive grappler. But who knows. Interesting for sure. I think the truth comes down to the fact that both guys had 2 years to sharpen their game in preparation for eachothers strengths and weaknesses.

My point, though, is that Fedor's game improved in those two years more than Cro Cop's. And both were scary strong and scary fast, so at no point would Fedor have been able to do to Cro Cop what he did to Nogueira or Herring. And, again, I maintain that Cro Cop was stronger and faster in 2003 than he was in 2005. Look at the way he moves against Igor versus the way he moves against Magomedov. And look at him throw Nog around like he was a fucking MW. Cro Cop was at his physical peak in 2002-2003 IMO, while his technical peak would be 2006 once he integrated his stronger grappling game and even improved GNP to his arsenal of murderous striking and impenetrable TDD. Either way, Fedor was very careful to get leverage and use super slick trips and TDs rather than try to outmuscle Cro Cop. He would've needed to do the same in 2003, and it would've been harder for him with his striking where it was then compared to two years later.

But, I reiterate, all these quibbles and nitpicks would probably yield the same result: Fedor and still the PRIDE HW champ.

 

[blaseblase]

Big Nog ain't no Jiri. Came back out for round 2 after getting smashed on and kicked in the head to get the sub. The toughness and endurance of Nog was unlike anything we see today. He'd legit die in there if he had to.

This version of Mirko which Nog beat would have kicked Poatans head into the 26th row.

Levels.

I don't think Poatan would get first round KO'd by Randleman or Gonzaga.

 

[StonedLemur]

I'd say 98, myself. But 99 was the year I missed 1/3 of the school year bc I was tripping acid all of the time, so it's an acceptable answer.

Yeah 98-98 were still good times...then it slowly fell apart somewhere.
That's what happens when bodies start slappin, from doing the wild thing lmao

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Very interesting hearing the commentary.

Imagine someone panicking (today) about merely being in "closed guard" and acting like that was imminent death??

CLOSED GUARD!?! OH NO!!


Sub defense has come SUCH a long way.

Well, there is nobody today with a super dangerous guard except for maybe Paul Craig. And Rogan definitely will mention it anytime Craig fights, let alone if they end up in Craig's guard.

Back in the day, we had guys like Nog, Werdum, Frank Shamrock, Frank Mir and Fedor. Usually top position is preferable in MMA but those guys have a lot of finishes off their backs.

Plus, Cro Cop was a K1 kickboxing convert and was fighting Nog, who had one of the best guards we have ever seen. That would be like if Poatan was in Paul Craig's guard today. We would never hear the end of it from Joe Rogan.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

There were very few HWs the size of Jones, Gus, Reyes, etc back then.

IMO prime Werdum, JDS, Cain, DC and Stipe would have been very competitive in PRIDE.

A lot of the Heavyweights back then were pretty big dudes. They were big and scary and extremely skilled.

Fabricio Werdum
Sergei Kharitonov
Aleksandr Emelianenko
Josh Barnett
Semmy Schilt
Mark Hunt
Alistair Overeem
Tom Erikson
Heath Herring
Andrei Arlovski
Tim Sylvia
Frank Mir

Everyone seems to think HWs were smaller back then just because Fedor, Nog, Cro Cop, Randy, Randleman, Rizzo were on the smaller side. Other than them, most of the HWs were just as big as the HWs today. Plus, a lot of the HWs today are fat and slow compared to the 2000s HWs who were all very athletic and were all actual combat sports masters, not just some fat random big dude who chose MMA as his third sport of choice.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

I don't think Poatan would get first round KO'd by Randleman or Gonzaga.

Probably not. They would probably take him down and chew him up on the ground.

I give Poatan a 40% chance at beating both because of his murderous striking and toughness.

But Randleman's takedowns were so hard to stop. He was also one of the greatest ever at holding somebody down for an entire round. His GNP was absolutely devastating, especially in PRIDE with his skyscraper knees.

Gonzaga is vulnerable to powerful strikers but he had strong takedowns in his prime and was world class on the ground. He would be so much heavier than Poatan. This would be a 60/40 or 50/50 fight.

Also remember, Cro Cop has a lot of fights and those were probably 2 of his worst moments. Also, remember he avenged both of those losses, finishing both Randleman and Gonzaga. Poatan could possibly have similar results, going 1-1 with each.

 

[Boomb]

MMA was really mainstream back then , I was a student working at a bar at the time. The next day everybody was talking about this fight. Everybody.

 

[Bullitt68]

I don't think Poatan would get first round KO'd by Randleman or Gonzaga.

To add to what @Typrune Goatley astutely pointed out, you also have to keep historical context in mind. Back then in the mid-00s it was rare for wrestlers or BJJ guys to have very good striking, much less possess a nuclear left hook like Randleman or surprise HK's you'd never thrown before and trained specifically for the fight of your life against a legendary kickboxer like Gonzaga. Everybody and their mother was expecting Randleman to shoot TDs and hold Cro Cop down for dear life, while everyone and their mother expected Gonzaga to shoot and look for the submission. Instead, Randleman winged a monster left hook and Gonzaga fired off a missile head kick. Watch the fights and listen to the shock in the announcer's voices. Nobody was expecting that to happen, least of all Cro Cop. Today is a very different time where now - THANKS TO FIGHTS LIKE THAT - people are well-rounded and expect their opponents to be well-rounded, too.

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

To add to what @Typrune Goatley astutely pointed out, you also have to keep historical context in mind. Back then in the mid-00s it was rare for wrestlers or BJJ guys to have very good striking, much less possess a nuclear left hook like Randleman or surprise HK's you'd never thrown before and trained specifically for the fight of your life against a legendary kickboxer like Gonzaga. Everybody and their mother was expecting Randleman to shoot TDs and hold Cro Cop down for dear life, while everyone and their mother expected Gonzaga to shoot and look for the submission. Instead, Randleman winged a monster left hook and Gonzaga fired off a missile head kick. Watch the fights and listen to the shock in the announcer's voices. Nobody was expecting that to happen, least of all Cro Cop. Today is a very different time where now - THANKS TO FIGHTS LIKE THAT - people are well-rounded and expect their opponents to be well-rounded, too.

also Poatan is not immune to shocking knockout losses himself, nobody expected Adesanya to sleep him like he did.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

I don't think Poatan would get first round KO'd by Randleman or Gonzaga.

Randleman was a D1 wrestling champion with one of the most powerful double leg takedowns ever and nasty KO power. He caught Mirko in Mirkos 8th fight that year. Mirko got it back in the rematch.

Kevin would take Alex down pretty easily but that doesn't mean he'd win. It just means Alex would be under big pressure and if he lost to Randleman it wouldn't surprise me at all. Randleman was an absolute savage.

Gonzaga in his peak and most confident form would likely take Alex down as well and Gonzaga was a BJJ world champion. I doubt Alex would have much for him from his back. Again, this doesn't mean Gonzaga would win but Alex would have his hands full.

There's a chance Alex could go 1-1 with Kevin and Gonzaga just like Mirko did.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

also Poatan is not immune to shocking knockout losses himself, nobody expected Adesanya to sleep him like he did.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

Probably not. They would probably take him down and chew him up on the ground.

I give Poatan a 40% chance at beating both because of his murderous striking and toughness.

But Randleman's takedowns were so hard to stop. He was also one of the greatest ever at holding somebody down for an entire round. His GNP was absolutely devastating, especially in PRIDE with his skyscraper knees.

Gonzaga is vulnerable to powerful strikers but he had strong takedowns in his prime and was world class on the ground. He would be so much heavier than Poatan. This would be a 60/40 or 50/50 fight.

Also remember, Cro Cop has a lot of fights and those were probably 2 of his worst moments. Also, remember he avenged both of those losses, finishing both Randleman and Gonzaga. Poatan could possibly have similar results, going 1-1 with each.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Randleman was a D1 wrestling champion with one of the most powerful double leg takedowns ever and nasty KO power. He caught Mirko in Mirkos 8th fight that year. Mirko got it back in the rematch.

Kevin would take Alex down pretty easily but that doesn't mean he'd win. It just means Alex would be under big pressure and if he lost to Randleman it wouldn't surprise me at all. Randleman was an absolute savage.

Gonzaga in his peak and most confident form would likely take Alex down as well and Gonzaga was a BJJ world champion. I doubt Alex would have much for him from his back. Again, this doesn't mean Gonzaga would win but Alex would have his hands full.

There's a chance Alex could go 1-1 with Kevin and Gonzaga just like Mirko did.

I dont think Kevin really has a ground game that is threatening enough, and he was really inconsistent in general. Kevin has good power but I don't really see him catching Alex like he did with Crocop, that's not something he can do with any consistency.

He can take Alex down, but then what? If it's a 25 minute fight, he's probably gonna get caught at one point.

Gongzaga would be a really bad match up though. i'd favor Gonzaga for sure.

 

[Ludwig von Mises]

I dont think Kevin really has a ground game that is threatening enough, and he was really inconsistent in general. Kevin has good power but I don't really see him catching Alex like he did with Crocop, that's not something he can do with any consistency.

He can take Alex down, but then what? If it's a 25 minute fight, he's probably gonna get caught at one point.

Gongzaga would be a really bad match up though. i'd favor Gonzaga for sure.