Circling The Arguments (SCO thread v. 32)

[bobgeese]

Yesterday.

"First of all, it is necessary for the United States to stop the current way of calculation and approach us with a new way of calculation," Kim said in Pyongyang at the first meeting of the 14th session of the Supreme People's Assembly of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, KCNA reports.

"What is obvious is that if the United States sticks to the current political way of calculation, the prospects for problem solving will be dark and very dangerous."

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/12/politics/kim-jong-un-donald-trump-nuclear-talks/index.html


Unless things going "dark and dangerous" = Ice cream social in Trumpworld...

Truthfully that is a step back in rhetoric, which is unfortunate.

That being said, the reality is he’s been behaving himself, which is a significant improvement.

 

[bobgeese]

He didn't "Spy" on the Trump campaign. The Trump campaign was placed under investigation because of proven links/connections with a hostile foreign government.

Call it partisan hackery all you want, but there were some people doing some shady stuff with Russian help and they got nailed.

That is a fact.

What exactly triggered Stefan Halper to be dispatched?

 

[Strychnine]

Truthfully that is a step back in rhetoric, which is unfortunate.

That being said, the reality is he’s been behaving himself, which is a significant improvement.

Gotcha, "Ice Cream Social" it is.

 

[bobgeese]

Show me some evidence the surveillance was illegal. Not speculation, evidence. We can speculate on more interesting things that aren't about politics. Otherwise, all you're doing is parsing words while enjoying the effect of the insinuation of illegality. I get it's a political play to idiots, and that you're not one of them.

The government hasn’t stated why Halper was dispatched.

Hence the Ag and IG investigations.

 

[Strychnine]

What exactly triggered Stefan Halper to be dispatched?

The Trump campaign working with a hostile foreign power. But that's just my humble opinion.

 

[bobgeese]

Gotcha, "Ice Cream Social" it is.

I was pretty clear it’s a step beck in rhetoric.

 

[Strychnine]

I was pretty clear it’s a step beck in rhetoric.

It still doesn't translate to "sunshine and rainbows" though, does it?

 

[bobgeese]

The Trump campaign working with a hostile foreign power. But that's just my humble opinion.

This is complete tin foil hat nonsense.

No charges were brought against anyone for “working with Russia”

So again, what triggered the placement of a spy who contacted 3 trump campaign members?

 

[bobgeese]

It still doesn't translate to "sunshine and rainbows" though, does it?

No, but it translates to NK hasn’t fired a missile sing meeting with trump.

 

[HereticBD]

The Trump campaign working with a hostile foreign power. But that's just my humble opinion.

You say this even after the Mueller investigation found no such thing?

Jesus Christ.

 

[Strychnine]

This is complete tin foil hat nonsense.

No charges were brought against anyone for “working with Russia”

So again, what triggered the placement of a spy who contacted 3 trump campaign members?

Ok, I'll type this slowly...

IMHO the investigation was triggered by the meeting in Trump tower, the hiring of Manafort (when everyone else screamed that Trump shouldn't do it), the hiring of Gen. Flynn (when everyone else screamed that Trump shouldn't do it), etc.

When an investigation is done for "collusion" and someone is found out to have done other crimes, those crimes are generally not ignored.

Sorry, but that's how it works...

 

[Strychnine]

You say this even after the Mueller investigation found no such thing?

Jesus Christ.

Yup.

When an investigation is done for X and Y is found, Y is not just tossed into the dumpster.

It doesn't work that way.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

He didn't "Spy" on the Trump campaign. The Trump campaign was placed under investigation because of proven links/connections with a hostile foreign government.

Call it partisan hackery all you want, but there were some people doing some shady stuff with Russian help and they got nailed.

That is a fact.

Who's been indicted for Russian collusion?

Don't tell me you still believe in the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax?

Obama used our national security apparatus for the petty reason of spying on his political opposition.

You can try and put lipstick on that pig any way you like, it's still a pig.

You can try and dress-up the executive spying on its political opposition with any language you like, it's still just spying.

Also, since it appears you're going to pretend to not know who Obama's political opposition was, allow me to refresh your memory and give you absolutely zero room for the Obama apologetics I'm already anticipating.

"my legacy is on the ballot!"
-Former President Obama, September 2016.

https://www.nbcnews.com/card/obama-my-legacy-ballot-n656066

This demonstrates clearly, objectively, and measurably, that Obama viewed President Trump as direct political opposition to his legacy and his policy objectives.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

You say this even after the Mueller investigation found no such thing?

Jesus Christ.

At this point, people who try to perpetuate the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax are perpetuating dangerous and extremist language based on nothing more than conspiracy theory.

 

[waiguoren]

Spying = Illegal if caught doing it as it wasn't ordered by law enforcement/judge.

Surveillance = Legal because it was ordered as part of an investigation by a law enforcement agency/judge.

Surveillance is definitely not always legal, and definitely not always ordered by a law enforcement agency or judge.

 

[bobgeese]

Ok, I'll type this slowly...

IMHO the investigation was triggered by the meeting in Trump tower, the hiring of Manafort (when everyone else screamed that Trump shouldn't do it), the hiring of Gen. Flynn (when everyone else screamed that Trump shouldn't do it), etc.

When an investigation is done for "collusion" and someone is found out to have done other crimes, those crimes are generally not ignored.

Sorry, but that's how it works...

Thanks for confirming the spying was unwarranted. Halper was dispatched LONG before anyone knew of the TT meeting.

Flynn was guilty of trying to fuck a Russian ginger. That is hardly grounds to spy on a presidential campaign.

Manafort? Now you’re just being silly. They already knew his crimes and should have just arrested him.


So again until anyone can provide a reason why Halper was deployed, it’s looking bad.

 

[Strychnine]

Who's been indicted for Russian collusion?

Don't tell me you still believe in the Russian collusion conspiracy hoax?

Obama used our national security apparatus for the petty reason of spying on his political opposition.

You can try and put lipstick on that pig any way you like, it's still a pig.

You can try and dress-up the executive spying on its political opposition with any language you like, it's still just spying.

Also, since it appears you're going to pretend to not know who Obama's political opposition was, allow me to refresh your memory and give you absolutely zero room for the Obama apologetics I'm already anticipating.

"my legacy is on the ballot!"
-Former President Obama, September 2016.

https://www.nbcnews.com/card/obama-my-legacy-ballot-n656066

This demonstrates clearly, objectively, and measurably, that Obama viewed President Trump as direct political opposition to his legacy and his policy objectives.

President Obama was in his 2nd term and thus could not run for the office of President again. He had no opposition.

 

[Strychnine]

Surveillance is definitely not always legal, and definitely not always ordered by a law enforcement agency or judge.

It was legal in this case as there have been zero charges, indictments, or guilty pleas.

In the Trump camp however....

 

[Strychnine]

Thanks for confirming the spying was unwarranted. Halper was dispatched LONG before anyone knew of the TT meeting.

Flynn was guilty of trying to fuck a Russian ginger. That is hardly grounds to spy on a presidential campaign.

Manafort? Now you’re just being silly. They already knew his crimes and should have just arrested him.


So again until anyone can provide a reason why Halper was deployed, it’s looking bad.

Timestamped. 12 minutes of your life. You'll thank me later.

 

[waiguoren]

It was legal in this case as there have been zero charges, indictments, or guilty pleas.

In the Trump camp however....

The point is that there is zero material difference between the verbs "to spy on" and "to surveil" in the common parlance. If I spy on you, then I also surveil you. If I surveil you, then I also spy on you.

You seem to be arguing that Barr insinuated that the FBI's spying on Trump campaign members was improper (i.e., in violation of law or protocol), but Barr himself said explicitly and repeatedly in the hearing that he was not insinuating that the spying was improper. He said he wants to look into what happened to be sure everything was done properly as spying on a presidential campaign is a serious matter.