Circling The Arguments (SCO thread v. 32)

[waiguoren]

Spying can be insinuated as infiltrating a group under the guise of someone else and stealing information.

This is way off.

1)The target definitely does not need to be "a group". An individual would suffice.

2) No "infiltration" is necessary (watching from a distance meets the common definition)

3) The observation need not be done "under the guise of someone else". A man can spy on his neighbor without impersonating another.

4) "Stealing information" need not be part of it. Again, watching from a distance meets the common definition. I suppose you could expand "stealing information" to include things like the target's whereabouts or his activities, but that's a big stretch in my opinion.

 

[hillelslovak87]

I suspect Rodentstein was pressured into it, but I don’t believe for a second that he wasn’t aware the investigation was baseless. He probably turned on his comrades once he realized Mueller couldn’t close. That’s why McCabe tried to sink him with that 25th Amendment accusation. If Trump wanted to fire Rat Rod, he’d be gone. Trump wants him around for some reason.

BTW I don’t respect the coward republicans who blew Mueller’s cock. They are all traitors, and they all look like morons now. Too bad we can’t throw John McCain’s corpse in jail.

How are the Republicans traitors? They have offered no ethical or policy alternatives to the president, and have cowed down to him at every turn. The only ones who have spoken with any moral clarity are the cowards like Jeff Flake who only did so with one foot out the door and one stepping into some lobbyist's limo.

Trump has said and done some insane and stupid shit countless times, and there are consistent echos of crickets coming from the party of morality, or so they would say.

 

[bobgeese]

How are the Republicans traitors? They have offered no ethical or policy alternatives to the president, and have cowed down to him at every turn. The only ones who have spoken with any moral clarity are the cowards like Jeff Flake who only did so with one foot out the door and one stepping into some lobbyist's limo.

Trump has said and done some insane and stupid shit countless times, and there are consistent echos of crickets coming from the party of morality, or so they would say.

For all that stupid shit, the country is doing soooooooo much better than under Obama.

Odd...

 

[hillelslovak87]

For all that stupid shit, the country is doing soooooooo much better than under Obama.

Odd...

How do you measure that, exactly?

 

[bobgeese]

How do you measure that, exactly?

The economy is kicking ass, Dow at all time high, we’re leading the world in carbon reduction without wasting millions on PCA, Isis no longer releasing beheading videos every other month (Islamic terrorism has PLUMMETED worldwide), wall under construction, strengthened military, courts reshaped for a generation, lower taxes and regulations, no longer paying ransom for hostages, a complete 180 in NK behavior, relative silence from the Middle East, an administration that began to fight back against China,...

Should I continue?

 

[andnowweknow]

The economy is kicking ass, Dow at all time high, we’re leading the world in carbon reduction without wasting millions on PCA, Isis no longer releasing beheading videos every other month (Islamic terrorism has PLUMMETED worldwide), wall under construction, strengthened military, courts reshaped for a generation, lower taxes and regulations, no longer paying ransom for hostages, a complete 180 in NK behavior, relative silence from the Middle East, an administration that began to fight back against China,...

Should I continue?

 

[bobgeese]

Dispute a single claim.

 

[andnowweknow]

Dispute a single claim.

how about you explain how Trump is responsible for any of that? (by "that", I mean the stuff that's actually happening, I'm not gonna debate things that aren't real)

 

[bobgeese]

how about you explain how Trump is responsible for any of that? (by "that", I mean the stuff that's actually happening, I'm not gonna debate things that aren't real)

Tax cuts and regulations, presidential powers to appoint judges, stopping arming jihadists in Syria and bombing the shit out of them instead, punking Kim chee gout, fighting for border security funding, having the confidence of the buisiness community.

 

[HereticBD]

Tax cuts and regulations, presidential powers to appoint judges, stopping arming jihadists in Syria and bombing the shit out of them instead, punking Kim chee gout, fighting for border security funding, having the confidence of the buisiness community.

Riding that Obama wave. All Trump has done as President is watch FOX News and eat Cheetos.

 

[bobgeese]

Riding that Obama wave. All Trump has done as President is watch FOX News and eat Cheetos.

Bro... bro... Obama’s plan all along was that once he left office, everything would start working.

Stop being a racist transphobic Nazi.

 

[Ophydian]

This is way off.

1)The target definitely does not need to be "a group". An individual would suffice.

2) No "infiltration" is necessary (watching from a distance meets the common definition)

3) The observation need not be done "under the guise of someone else". A man can spy on his neighbor without impersonating another.

4) "Stealing information" need not be part of it. Again, watching from a distance meets the common definition. I suppose you could expand "stealing information" to include things like the target's whereabouts or his activities, but that's a big stretch in my opinion.

So cops on a stake out are spies. Thanks for playing.

Way to pick apart on one sentence. I’m sorry I didn’t include every term and variation that suited you. I’m surprised you didn’t correct any spelling and grammar.

 

[Strychnine]

Spying = Illegal if caught doing it as it wasn't ordered by law enforcement/judge.

Surveillance = Legal because it was ordered as part of an investigation by a law enforcement agency/judge.

 

[andnowweknow]

Tax cuts and regulations, presidential powers to appoint judges, stopping arming jihadists in Syria and bombing the shit out of them instead, punking Kim chee gout, fighting for border security funding, having the confidence of the buisiness community.

the rest is all debatable, for the masochist. It's far to nuanced, by definition, to debate it with someone who supports Trump, who has never used a nuanced argument in his life, but rather lies at every turn and has NEVER admitted he was ever wrong. You can claim victory on anything, and Trump does, regardless of accomplishment. You're claiming some achievement by circumstance and attributing it to Trump, if anything, he's accomplished things through his own error...which I guess he should get credit for.

the thing with North Korea has been an embarrassment, trying to spin (lie) that we've somehow advanced things or that Trump has done anything other than embarrass us on that matter is ridiculous. NK is the only one who got anything out of this administrations time. It's a joke to bring that up.

He has changed the discourse, which can be seen as positives in some light and negative in others. The real problem with Trump is the he's incredibly self serving and I don't even believe you think he gives two shits about the health of our country in any sense of the word. I think he allows you to think what you want to think more freely (not in the closet) and all his obvious negatives as a person and leader go by the wayside because of a few core things he happens to meet with you on.

I appreciate you dropping the wall argument. Thank you, with no smartassery on my part. He's lost the campaign promise in every way and will continue to lose it because Republicans really don't care about it either.

 

[andnowweknow]

Spying = Illegal if caught doing it as it wasn't ordered by law enforcement/judge.

Surveillance = Legal because it was ordered as part of an investigation by a law enforcement agency/judge.

all this about the use of 'spying' is aimed at stupid people to make them further skeptical of those who might investigate Trump. Bill Barr is a disingenuous liar and he wasn't confused about anything, he was purposely using the word "spying" where it had know place, and he knows it has no place in the discussion.

 

[HereticBD]

Surveillance = Legal because it was ordered as part of an investigation by a law enforcement agency/judge.

No, there is such thing as illegal surveillance. Many cases fall apart over authorities not following proper protocol when it comes to surveillance.

I don't know why people are hung up on the terms. All that matters is if the right to run surveillance on Trump's campaign was granted under proper procedure. Whether you call it spying or surveillance means fuck all.

 

[andnowweknow]

All that matters is if the right to run surveillance on Trump's campaign was granted under proper procedure. Whether you call it spying or surveillance means fuck all.

Do you have the basic understanding of why the Trump administration is using the word "spying"?

 

[HereticBD]

Do you have the basic understanding of why the Trump administration is using the word "spying"?

It obviously sounds worse. Much like "surveillance" sounds better for Dems. They're both playing politics with the terms. What's your point?

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is if the people involved got the go ahead legally.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

I think this is silly. To most people, wiretapping and tracking an individual without that individual's consent constitutes "spying" on him. What is your specific issue with that term?

The issue with that specific term for those on the left is that it forces them to acknowledge former President Obama authorized the use of our national security apparatus to do something as petty as spy on his political opposition.

 

[andnowweknow]

It obviously sounds worse. Much like "surveillance" sounds better for Dems. They're both playing politics with the terms. What's your point?

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is if the people involved got the go ahead legally.

It IS authorized, by a court, surveillance. It is being called "spying" to create a sense of illegality...directed at idiots who Trump wants to rile support from on the far right. It's a lie, it's all run of the mill law enforcement in reality. Nobody is spinning anything on the left, they're saying it's not "spying"...because that word has connotations you're continuing to play dumb on.