Catch Wrestling United

Robert Drysdale description of the BJJ lineage.



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Why did he put Western Wrestling up there but ignore the guys at Luta Livre in their relationship with the Gracies?!

Takeo Yano didn't learn from Kodokan, but from Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, didn't he?

Why should we accept speculation about the Gracie teacher being Maeda?

What is the reason for saying that they did not learn from Maeda, when; Maeda worked at their father's circus, had a gym in the city (small if I'm not mistaken) where they lived, and I imagine that if Donato Pires, (student at maeda, right?), was the one who taught, then it was at the gym of Maeda, soon they were part of it. (The other option is that they learned outside their hometown, but what are the chances based on all the things above?).

He, understandably, also did not mention the CACC teacher that Kano asked to teach grappling to his students, Pop Moore student of Frank Gotch, I'm just saying that because he put wrestling up there.

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What do you guys think?
 
Moving the reply where it belongs.

I don't want to hijack the thread either, but I will just say that I don't feel the same way at all as far as catch-wrestling goes. I mean, I met Curran Jacobs, we rolled a bit, he seemed cool, but he's got nothing to do with why I identify with catch-wrestling or am interested by it. Neither do any of these contemporary guys that are competing with pins and submissions. Its the techniques and the style employed by guys like Lou Thesz, Ken Shamrock, Masakatsu Funaki, Ed Lewis, Sakuraba, Fujiwara, Kiyoshi Tamura, etc. that means something to me. I was able to learn from them and incorporate what I learned into my game and basically every match I've won or even scored offense in I owe in part to that general style. Its the style and the techniques that mean something to me, not the guys that happen to be competing under a specific set of rules. And in that sense, people who can put out material related to that style and those techniques have some importance to me.

I don't know. I admire and respect your passion for the sport but I never met anyone speaking of the sport in the terms you do. Never heard anyone called it "japanese catch", people always used the shooto or shootfighting or any other word with shoot in it back in the days. Except for Sakuraba I never hear people calling the japanese catch wrestlers. I know they got taught by catch wrestlers like Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson but even then both of them complained about the japanese removing pins and wrestling off their backs.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful but your viewpoint of catch wrestling or japanese MMA makes me wonder if you really have any experience of it that isn't online.

The modern day catch wrestlers competing in catch wrestling with pins and submissions represents what catch wrestling really is and always has been.
 
Moving the reply where it belongs.



I don't know. I admire and respect your passion for the sport but I never met anyone speaking of the sport in the terms you do. Never heard anyone called it "japanese catch", people always used the shooto or shootfighting or any other word with shoot in it back in the days. Except for Sakuraba I never hear people calling the japanese catch wrestlers. I know they got taught by catch wrestlers like Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson but even then both of them complained about the japanese removing pins and wrestling off their backs.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful but your viewpoint of catch wrestling or japanese MMA makes me wonder if you really have any experience of it that isn't online.

The modern day catch wrestlers competing in catch wrestling with pins and submissions represents what catch wrestling really is and always has been.
Well, whatever. I don't have anything to prove to you, if you think that all my experience is online, then, whatever. Think what you want, I guess. Shooto was only considered a style briefly in its early days. Nobody ever called the guys who did Pancrase "Shooto" for example. And Pancrase was calling their submission wrestling matches "catch wrestling" long before this current craze for catch-wrestling began, which started to define it as a rule-set rather than a style.

In any event, I'm basically done with you. Its a pretty huge insult to devote a huge part of your life to the mat and then have some guy you've never met online call that into question. I don't need that sort of aggravation.
 
Well, whatever. I don't have anything to prove to you, if you think that all my experience is online, then, whatever. Think what you want, I guess. Shooto was only considered a style briefly in its early days. Nobody ever called the guys who did Pancrase "Shooto" for example. And Pancrase was calling their submission wrestling matches "catch wrestling" long before this current craze for catch-wrestling began, which started to define it as a rule-set rather than a style.

In any event, I'm basically done with you. Its a pretty huge insult to devote a huge part of your life to the mat and then have some guy you've never met online call that into question. I don't need that sort of aggravation.

I apologise, I can tell you're an experienced grappler. It's just your viewpoint of catch wrestling I can't understand.
 
I apologise, I can tell you're an experienced grappler. It's just your viewpoint of catch wrestling I can't understand.
Well, I appreciate you saying that, bro.

I understand that my view of it isn't the same as some others. All I can say is that I appreciate the style, techniques and aesthetics of certain people and whatever you want to call that style, it has had a big effect on me and it registered with me in a way that a lot of other approaches to grappling didn't (I was able to perform a short-arm scissor off of a rolling Kimura, for example, long before I could confidently apply an armbar). I'm not just thinking of the Japanese stuff, because I learned a lot from guys like Thesz, etc.
 
I should add I guess I misunderstood your previous post, so I appreciate the clarification.
 
I hope we're all good. I like what you're doing, both here and on other social media like twitter.

I understand that my view of it isn't the same as some others. All I can say is that I appreciate the style, techniques and aesthetics of certain people and whatever you want to call that style, it has had a big effect on me and it registered with me in a way that a lot of other approaches to grappling didn't (I was able to perform a short-arm scissor off of a rolling Kimura, for example, long before I could confidently apply an armbar). I'm not just thinking of the Japanese stuff, because I learned a lot from guys like Thesz, etc.

I don't watch a lot of videos of the old timers but I have seen your submission master with Lou. I think you would like Roy Wood as a coach, all of those moves except the bicep slicer he will teach in the first sessions. Then besides that he's also a single leg ride wrestler with a bunch of moves from there only a few grapplers ever seen.

To be honest also if it wasn't for Japan most people wouldn't know about catch. I'm lucky being born in Manchester and there's always been catch wrestlers around, although most of the time it associated with pro wrestlers.
 
I hope we're all good. I like what you're doing, both here and on other social media like twitter.



I don't watch a lot of videos of the old timers but I have seen your submission master with Lou. I think you would like Roy Wood as a coach, all of those moves except the bicep slicer he will teach in the first sessions. Then besides that he's also a single leg ride wrestler with a bunch of moves from there only a few grapplers ever seen.

To be honest also if it wasn't for Japan most people wouldn't know about catch. I'm lucky being born in Manchester and there's always been catch wrestlers around, although most of the time it associated with pro wrestlers.
We're definitely good, I just misunderstood you. I thought it was out of character (what I thought you were saying), which is part of why I was so surprised. It was really cool of you to clarify what you meant, most guys wouldn't do that, at least not online. I know that I'd be very lucky to ever meet Roy, let alone be coached by him.
 
Roy and his daughter Andrea are definitely two of the nicest people you could ever meet.
 
Here's a very good video about catch wrestling, what it is and what it's not. Some good mythbusting, especially about the meaning of catch as catch can.

 
What rules catch wrestling haves? Can i pin in the half guard? or in the rubber guard? Or even when the guy catches my back?
 
What rules catch wrestling haves? Can i pin in the half guard? or in the rubber guard? Or even when the guy catches my back?

Yes, all catch wrestling competitions includes pins in the guard. The more traditional rulesets allows zero guard, if your back is on the mat 1 second you lose. There are newer organisations like Sapateiro that allows guard work and doesn't count it as a pin if you have a submission on your opponent at the same time.

Sometimes it gets silly, at the latest Legit pro wrestling event a wrestler lost by pin when he had his opponent in a rear naked choke.
 
Yes, all catch wrestling competitions includes pins in the guard. The more traditional rulesets allows zero guard, if your back is on the mat 1 second you lose. There are newer organisations like Sapateiro that allows guard work and doesn't count it as a pin if you have a submission on your opponent at the same time.

Sometimes it gets silly, at the latest Legit pro wrestling event a wrestler lost by pin when he had his opponent in a rear naked choke.
Nice, i am really in love with the Japanese Combat Wrestling rules. Besides being brazilian and having a background in Jiu Jitsu, i think that pinning is awesome art, but i don't appreciate to much guard pinning and pinnings with the back.
 
Nice, i am really in love with the Japanese Combat Wrestling rules. Besides being brazilian and having a background in Jiu Jitsu, i think that pinning is awesome art, but i don't appreciate to much guard pinning and pinnings with the back.

I also like the combat wrestling ruleset but their pins don't finish matches, and have to last for about 20 seconds before you score any points. That opens up for a lot groundwork off your back that you won't see in catch wrestling.

A lot of the moves do exist but for example both armbars and leglocks are made with your belly down to keep your back off the mat. I posted a video on this thread a while ago when a BJJ black belt, Chris Thompson lost by pin when he applied a regular heel hook on his opponent.
 
I also like the combat wrestling ruleset but their pins don't finish matches, and have to last for about 20 seconds before you score any points. That opens up for a lot groundwork off your back that you won't see in catch wrestling.

A lot of the moves do exist but for example both armbars and leglocks are made with your belly down to keep your back off the mat. I posted a video on this thread a while ago when a BJJ black belt, Chris Thompson lost by pin when he applied a regular heel hook on his opponent.
Yeah, this is awesome, i think it makes a lot more realistic to MMA too. If a guy is submitting you, but, at the same time, getting pinned this means that he is getting punches in the face. However, this is only realist when pinning with the back isn't allowed at all. Thought, even with back pinning, i believe that grappling needs more ways to finish a fight or score points and putting that area in the game just makes him more exciting.
 
Yeah, this is awesome, i think it makes a lot more realistic to MMA too. If a guy is submitting you, but, at the same time, getting pinned this means that he is getting punches in the face. However, this is only realist when pinning with the back isn't allowed at all. Thought, even with back pinning, i believe that grappling needs more ways to finish a fight or score points and putting that area in the game just makes him more exciting.

This is the bout I was talking abouy earlier. Between Chris Thompson a BJJ blackbelt and Tony Suffolk with only catch wrestling experience.

The bout is a bit slow and they don't reach the ground until around 4:30. At around 6:30 you can see the kind of belly down leglocks I'm talking about. At the end of the bout you will see the regular BJJ heel hook were Chris pins himself and lose. Although I have to add that most catch wrestlers think it was a controversial stoppage, including Roy Wood. Paul who is the referee have zero experience in BJJ and had no idea on what was going on.

Would also like to add that around 8:15 you will see a beautiful counter to the scissor takedown.

 
At the end of the bout you will see the regular BJJ heel hook were Chris pins himself and lose.


I disagree with that stoppage... did not look like a legit self-pin
 
I disagree with that stoppage... did not look like a legit self-pin
Yeah, that was definitely not a pin. At least, it wouldn't have been a pin in scholastic or freestyle wrestling. And certainly wouldn't have been a pin in the days of Ad Santel, as his back was more exposed, if anything, in the photos we see of him applying Achilles locks to opponents. At best one shoulder was down.
 
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