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Carlson Gracie Downtown Chicago

Not if he signed and there is no proof other. You can't assume he did or they scammed him. Unfortunately it goes by the contract. Most gym memberships are canceled in writing. Where's the proof?

If everyone is getting along and happy, the contracts sit in a drawer. If you are frequently having to refer to contracts and get everything in writing.... perhaps you're not getting along very well.
 
Lots of places require a credit card number during the free trial period. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Marcelo's website like this? You sign up as you would be signing up for a membership and do the free trial. It's up to you to cancel when the trial is over.

However, if I may bring something up from Business Law class, the written contract doesn't take precedent over what the person who signed the contract reasonably thought. It doesn't matter if there is fine print or big bold print that says "you must cancel at the end of the trial". If a court rules that a "reasonable person" would assume a free trial class at a jiu jitsu school did not commit you to a membership, then the contract doesn't mean shit. If the person he spoke with told him specifically or mislead him to believe that he was not signing up, then that voids whatever is on the contract.

Regardless, at our school, if someone didn't want to sign up at our gym, we let them go. We aren't out to take people's money unless they are on our mats. Now if someone signs a 12 month contract and does 3-4 months of it, they'll have to finish it. If someone comes in excited about learning "how to fight" and finds its not for them after a few weeks, we let them go.
 
Thanks for weighing in, Platfox.

Just to add additional info, according to what he said he told them he did not want to join immediately after the class and called 3 days later to confirm.

According to the various info he gave, I wouldn't say he was misled, I would say Jimmy flat out lied to him.
 
Thanks for weighing in, Platfox.

Just to add additional info, according to what he said he told them he did not want to join immediately after the class and called 3 days later to confirm.

According to the various info he gave, I wouldn't say he was misled, I would say Jimmy flat out lied to him.

I didn't read the whole thread when I posted, it looks like you and Dan already stated everything I posted in the last couple of pages. :cool: Carry on fellas.
 
It's OK, Platfox. It is confusing as hell because there are 2 threads about this.

I believe the TS. I just think he seems young and maybe not the brightest, but it seems like he came here to warn people and legitimately find a way to resolve his problem.

I don't get the impression he just wants to libel this gym for some unknown reason.
 
It's OK, Platfox. It is confusing as hell because there are 2 threads about this.

I believe the TS. I just think he seems young and maybe not the brightest, but it seems like he came here to warn people and legitimately find a way to resolve his problem.

I don't get the impression he just wants to libel this gym for some unknown reason.

Thanks Laban (-: I think you summed it up well. I was stupid to give my credit card info. I just thought they were a legit school that would care more about their reputation than scamming me out of a few hundred bucks. Also, they pitched the school well, and my roommate and I really wanted to try a class and they said the only way we could do that was by giving our credit card info. Live and learn.
 
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The responses from the gym reps are even worse than the initial complaint.

What kind of gym doesn't offer any free trial at all? Instead they just make you sign a contract before you even get on the mat? And if you don't cancel in the exact manner they specify in the fine print, they charge you for two months even though you never went back?

That's just sketchy as hell. Period.
 
Lots of places require a credit card number during the free trial period. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Marcelo's website like this? You sign up as you would be signing up for a membership and do the free trial. It's up to you to cancel when the trial is over.

However, if I may bring something up from Business Law class, the written contract doesn't take precedent over what the person who signed the contract reasonably thought. It doesn't matter if there is fine print or big bold print that says "you must cancel at the end of the trial". If a court rules that a "reasonable person" would assume a free trial class at a jiu jitsu school did not commit you to a membership, then the contract doesn't mean shit. If the person he spoke with told him specifically or mislead him to believe that he was not signing up, then that voids whatever is on the contract.

Regardless, at our school, if someone didn't want to sign up at our gym, we let them go. We aren't out to take people's money unless they are on our mats. Now if someone signs a 12 month contract and does 3-4 months of it, they'll have to finish it. If someone comes in excited about learning "how to fight" and finds its not for them after a few weeks, we let them go.


I don't know if the law is different over there but in Australia once you sign something you are fucked. The only ways you can get out of it are equitable remedies like undue influence or being drugged/threatened.


Its your fault if you dont read it properly and sign it.
 
I don't practice law and have never been in court for a contract dispute but based on my Business Law class, the contract isn't the only consideration. Its been a while but I believe its called the Theory of Objective Intent (when the offerer misleads you) & the Theory of Constructive Knowledge (when there are unreasonable stipulations hidden in contract).
 
There's always something going down in Chicago.

No free trial is shady as hell. Expect little sympathy from this community Eric.
 
I don't practice law and have never been in court for a contract dispute but based on my Business Law class, the contract isn't the only consideration. Its been a while but I believe its called the Theory of Objective Intent (when the offerer misleads you) & the Theory of Constructive Knowledge (when there are unreasonable stipulations hidden in contract).

The problem here is that there's only TS's word that he was misled. TS claims that Jimmy misled him on the nature of the trial, but the point is moot because TS also claims to have cancelled not once, but twice within the 3 day period...even though he says he didn't know he needed to do so.

The conditions of the contract were not hidden, nor unreasonable. In fact, they're pretty standard among fitness clubs. If you don't cancel within the trial, you're on the hook for the full contract. Even if you don't use it, those contracts are for access to the facility and classes.

The real accusation here is that Jimmy deliberately processed the contracts even after TS cancelled them (twice) within the 3 day period. That's the part that strikes me as a little hard to swallow, because TS didn't just cancel twice...he says he cancelled twice by speaking directly to Jimmy. TS also states that Jimmy told them in no uncertain terms that they had cancelled and would not be billed. Which means either Jimmy has some Memento-quality memory issues, someone else in the office submitted the paperwork by mistake, or Jimmy is both ethically bankrupt and stupid enough to submit the paperwork anyway in the hopes that TS and his roommate wouldn't notice a monthly charge for $110 on their cards.

The part that has me scratching my head is motive. Jimmy can't make much of a commission on 2 sales that total under $2800 in revenue, if he even works on commission at all. Clearly he would realize he's putting his job in jeopardy, and exposing his employer (and possibly himself) to a lawsuit and/or criminal investigation. It just doesn't make sense....why would someone risk so much for so little? Particularly in a scenario where he'd be virtually guaranteed to get caught?

And again, the alternate theory is "oh crap, I meant to cancel that but I forgot". At what point does Occam's Razor come into play?
 
even if that is what the contract says it is bad business to charge people for things that they dont want.
 
The guy goes to one class that he thinks is a free trial and the gym thinks they can charge him a few hundred dollars and keep charging him every month even though he is not going just because they have a policy of making people sign up to try the class and then hope they forget to cancel so they can just keep collecting money.

Why would someone defend a place like this? Even if it were legal it seems extremely unethical in the least.

Hopefully the real story on this situation comes out soon.
 
The problem here is that there's only TS's word that he was misled. TS claims that Jimmy misled him on the nature of the trial, but the point is moot because TS also claims to have cancelled not once, but twice within the 3 day period...even though he says he didn't know he needed to do so.

The conditions of the contract were not hidden, nor unreasonable. In fact, they're pretty standard among fitness clubs. If you don't cancel within the trial, you're on the hook for the full contract. Even if you don't use it, those contracts are for access to the facility and classes.

The real accusation here is that Jimmy deliberately processed the contracts even after TS cancelled them (twice) within the 3 day period. That's the part that strikes me as a little hard to swallow, because TS didn't just cancel twice...he says he cancelled twice by speaking directly to Jimmy. TS also states that Jimmy told them in no uncertain terms that they had cancelled and would not be billed. Which means either Jimmy has some Memento-quality memory issues, someone else in the office submitted the paperwork by mistake, or Jimmy is both ethically bankrupt and stupid enough to submit the paperwork anyway in the hopes that TS and his roommate wouldn't notice a monthly charge for $110 on their cards.

The part that has me scratching my head is motive. Jimmy can't make much of a commission on 2 sales that total under $2800 in revenue, if he even works on commission at all. Clearly he would realize he's putting his job in jeopardy, and exposing his employer (and possibly himself) to a lawsuit and/or criminal investigation. It just doesn't make sense....why would someone risk so much for so little? Particularly in a scenario where he'd be virtually guaranteed to get caught?

And again, the alternate theory is "oh crap, I meant to cancel that but I forgot". At what point does Occam's Razor come into play?

Its misleading to offer "free trial" and then have someone automatically be signed up after the "trial". It can be common practice but it depends on how liberal the court is. Businesses do things all the time that would not hold up in court because most people wont escalate it all the way to court. They play a numbers game.

Based on what I learned in class, if you offer a free trial, the student never showed up to any additional classes, & he signed up at another gym...thats plenty to win this in court. It wouldn't even come down to his word vs the salesperson's word.

Just wanna mention again, just basing this on class textbooks (which are usually written from the liberal pov).
 
The guy goes to one class that he thinks is a free trial and the gym thinks they can charge him a few hundred dollars and keep charging him every month even though he is not going just because they have a policy of making people sign up to try the class and then hope they forget to cancel so they can just keep collecting money.

Why would someone defend a place like this? Even if it were legal it seems extremely unethical in the least.

Hopefully the real story on this situation comes out soon.

It might be legal but it doesnt mean it would hold up on court. If he attended classes after the advertised "free trial", then he'd probably be out some money, but the key here is, he never came back.
 
Yeah, I can't imagine it would hold up in court.

Just because you put something in a contract and get them to sign it doesn't mean it will hold up. What if the contract said something even more outrageous? It could say they will charge him $100,000.

The other issue about this situation is why doesn't the gym just cancel the charges if he really only went to one class? Why are they fighting so hard to keep a few hundred dollars just because he went to a trial class?
 
Yeah, I can't imagine it would hold up in court.

Just because you put something in a contract and get them to sign it doesn't mean it will hold up. What if the contract said something even more outrageous? It could say they will charge him $100,000.

The other issue about this situation is why doesn't the gym just cancel the charges if he really only went to one class? Why are they fighting so hard to keep a few hundred dollars just because he went to a trial class?

Yeah, Google can be a bitch. They probably already lost more than a few hundred dollars in potential students.
 
Yeah, I think they should just try to talk to him about resolving the issue and ask him to delete the negative things he said online. Instead they threatened him with law suits.

The damage is done. Sadly this is probably also Damaging Carlson because the gym is using his name even though he has nothing to do with them apparently. Good thing a name change for the gym is in the works.
 
I have been a member for a year and had zero problems. Probably due to me reading the actual contract i signed lol.
 
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