Social Canadian UHC - Woman waits 6 years for Knee Replacement - Get leg amputated Instead

[djacobox372]

Waiting time for 27 million uninsured Americans- infinite.

If wealthier people were forced to wait in line I think they'd probably do something to fix it, you know, with their wealth. Everybody wins.

 

[jeremyemilio]

As a New Brunswicker, this hits hard.

We have third world medicine here at this point.

The story in the OP is not an anomaly. I have two people in my life who have permanent nerve damage that dramatically changes the way that they live their lives because some things just shouldn't wait.

One of them has had his hand reduced to a permanent claw because he waited a year for surgery on a pinched nerve in his neck.

The other has no feeling in his feet, making it pretty much impossible to walk uneven ground in the dark or unless he can look down directly at his feet at all times, because he waited months for surgery for his diverticulitis, and in the meantime they kept him pumped full of anti-biotics that have nerve damage as a permanent side effect if used for too long.

Those should be malpractice suits worth hundreds of thousands or even millions. But here in NB, Canada, it's just the way things roll.

 

[jeremyemilio]

Imagine have worse results than that the shitshow of a healthcare system that Canada has. That's how bad the US is.

You're at least a decade behind the times. The US has much better outcomes and patient satisfaction than we do.

 

[rikibobby]

My wife manages an emerge department in northeastern ontario. She has had to close her emerge and the closest city has closed its emerge depts multiple times in the past 4 years due to being full. They are so bogged down with OD's it's mind boggling. Close every safe injection and supply location and lock them up. You'd be every nurse's, doctor's, police officer's, paramedics and firefighters best friends.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Pretty amusing, in the other thread I posted a research paper that concluded out of the 11 industrialized first world nations they looked at, USA was overall dead last, and Canada second to last.

The top 10 nations all had UHC, now we have a thread that wants to discredit UHC by comparing the last place country to the next to last country, specifically in the area the second to last place country has weakness in (wait times).

Again, this is the kind of tactics that people who are politically motivated engage in, as opposed to truth seeking individuals. It's what sleazy lawyers engage in, not fair minded judges.

 

[Bojka]

Canadian healthcare has really deteriorated the last few years and it was pretty bad before then.

 

[Blayt7hh]

Meanwhile in the United States:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-5-million-children-lose-235650660.html

Such a f*ckin embarrassment

Pretty amusing, in the other thread I posted a research paper that concluded out of the 11 industrialized first world nations they looked at, USA was overall dead last, and Canada second to last.

The top 10 nations all had UHC, now we have a thread that wants to discredit UHC by comparing the last place country to the next to last country, specifically in the area the second to last place country has weakness in (wait times).

Again, this is the kind of tactics that people who are politically motivated engage in, as opposed to truth seeking individuals. It's what sleazy lawyers engage in, not fair minded judges.

Isn’t it funny how the “facts don’t care about your feelings” crowd rely almost solely on anecdotes and ignore the big picture statistics?

 

[Lycandroid]

I appreciate your hedge here but a private option only draws human resources from the public system and make the current acute issue of lack of access even more difficult for most people. Instead, we've got the provincial government here talking about paying people to go to another province for MRI's at a private clinic.

Fuck that shit.

All the countries that score higher than us on healthcare metrics have robust private options.

Yes you are right we have massive staffing issues, that is a problem we created that we absolutely need to fix but that doesn't mean we should not look to private options. We haven't even caught up to what staffing levels were before Covid mandates in many areas and we are making new Canadians who are qualified to do these jobs jump through so many hoops in order to work. Funny how they can immigrate based on these qualifications but they can't work.

 

[Andy Capp]

All the countries that score higher than us on healthcare metrics have robust private options.

Yes you are right we have massive staffing issues, that is a problem we created that we absolutely need to fix but that doesn't mean we should not look to private options. We haven't even caught up to what staffing levels were before Covid mandates in many areas and we are making new Canadians who are qualified to do these jobs jump through so many hoops in order to work. Funny how they can immigrate based on these qualifications but they can't work.

I don't know where you are but on the east coast there is certainly quite a bit of action being taken with regard to accelerating the process of qualifying foreign healthcare workers for jobs here. It's too little too late in hindsight, but you know, 20-20 and all that.

Here's the thing: why do you suppose it's so hard to recruit people who are already here into medicine?

I think it's very plain that they need to be paid more. Where's the money coming from for that, you ask? Increased taxes on the wealthiest Canadians is my answer. Politicians could doubly put their own money where their mouths are and take a pay cut and people would rejoice.

But if you offer private options, you take away the incentive to increase funding for the public service and enshrine as private services some which should be covered by the government instead of needing private insurance for them, like mental healthcare. [Aside, props to NDP/Libs getting the dental care deal done at least.]

My insurance covers 2, or maybe 3 visits to a therapist if I need one. It's painfully ironic when you can't afford a visit to a therapist to talk about how affordability issues are exacerbating your mental health problems, isn't it?

I'd agree with private options once the public option has been fortified to where it provides an adequate standard of care. If you can afford to pay for the privilege of getting into see a specialist at 10am, Monday, instead of Wednesday at 2, more power to ya, but when it's the difference between 1 week and six to twelve months, that's an issue.

 

[Lycandroid]

I don't know where you are but on the east coast there is certainly quite a bit of action being taken with regard to accelerating the process of qualifying foreign healthcare workers for jobs here. It's too little too late in hindsight, but you know, 20-20 and all that.

Here's the thing: why do you suppose it's so hard to recruit people who are already here into medicine?

I think it's very plain that they need to be paid more. Where's the money coming from for that, you ask? Increased taxes on the wealthiest Canadians is my answer. Politicians could doubly put their own money where their mouths are and take a pay cut and people would rejoice.

But if you offer private options, you take away the incentive to increase funding for the public service and enshrine as private services some which should be covered by the government instead of needing private insurance for them, like mental healthcare. [Aside, props to NDP/Libs getting the dental care deal done at least.]

My insurance covers 2, or maybe 3 visits to a therapist if I need one. It's painfully ironic when you can't afford a visit to a therapist to talk about how affordability issues are exacerbating your mental health problems, isn't it?

I'd agree with private options once the public option has been fortified to where it provides an adequate standard of care. If you can afford to pay for the privilege of getting into see a specialist at 10am, Monday, instead of Wednesday at 2, more power to ya, but when it's the difference between 1 week and six to twelve months, that's an issue.

while I agree that some medical professionals need to be paid more, some are grosses overpaid and do very little to no work when it comes to the administrative side. We still have so many government workers working from home getting fuck all done. I was at a Christmas dinner a week ago where pretty much everyone was bragging about how little work they do and how great it is for their mental health to only a few hours of work a week.... gross.

You can't fix a money pit by throwing more money at it, we need major reforms to fix the system itself. What we have no will never offer an adequate standard of care on our current trajectory. It's been going downhill for years despite all the increases.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

while I agree that some medical professionals need to be paid more, some are grosses overpaid and do very little to no work when it comes to the administrative side. We still have so many government workers working from home getting fuck all done. I was at a Christmas dinner a week ago where pretty much everyone was bragging about how little work they do and how great it is for their mental health to only a few hours of work a week.... gross.

You can't fix a money pit by throwing more money at it, we need major reforms to fix the system itself. What we have no will never offer an adequate standard of care on our current trajectory. It's been going downhill for years despite all the increases.

It's also not a "canada thing" it's mostly a provincial thing. You can't expect capable provinces to offload the shittiness of the dreg provinces

Especially since those dreg provinces already tap the most in equalization payments per captia but still have the terrible outcomes. The onus is on them to figure out their own system and expect the capable provinces / income earners to offset their load.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Edit dbl

 

[NoSmilez]

You're at least a decade behind the times. The US has much better outcomes and patient satisfaction than we do.

Not at all. US spends double of what Canada spends on healthcare and it has worse outcomes. I think US is roughly around mid 40s in ranking for healthcare and dead last among the OECD countries. They compared the US to other high income countries. US came in last and Canada came in second to last but look at the graphic and you will see how far US is from the rest of the pack.

https://images.jifo.co/2547186_1627055313732.svg

https://images.jifo.co/2547186_1627057498313.svg

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly

The US probably has the best doctors in the world but the access to care is abysmal. US is also not good at preventing diseases. We spend the most and get subpar results.

 

[jeremyemilio]

Not at all. US spends double of what Canada spends on healthcare and it has worse outcomes. I think US is roughly around mid 40s in ranking for healthcare and dead last among the OECD countries. They compared the US to other high income countries. US came in last and Canada came in second to last but look at the graphic and you will see how far US is from the rest of the pack.

https://images.jifo.co/2547186_1627055313732.svg

https://images.jifo.co/2547186_1627057498313.svg

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly

The US probably has the best doctors in the world but the access to care is abysmal. US is also not good at preventing diseases. We spend the most and get subpar results.

I'm not seeing many details there, but it looks like these numbers are highly corelated to health scores (the health score of a country is a measure of how healthy the population is and its access to things that promote good health, including healthcare services, but also healthy food, clean air and water, housing security, etc.), and only vaguely related to the healthcare system, through broad and difficult to pin down sorts of factors like "equity" and "administrative efficiency."

But if you look at the specifics, and zero in on the sorts of clear and quantifiable measures that almost anyone collecting this sort of data agrees to be significant, it's looks like this:

Canada has 24 physicians per 10,000 people, to the US's 36:

List of countries by number of physicians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Canada has 2.6 hospital beds per 1000 people and 13 ICU beds per 100,000 people to the US's 2.8 and 29 (as well as 91% occupancy to the US's 64%):

List of countries by hospital beds - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Canada has 10 MRI units per million people to the US's 38:

MRI units density by country 2021 | Statista

Among member countries of the Organization of Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), Japan has the highest density of magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) units.

www.statista.com

Canada has 15 CT scanners per million people to the US's 43:

Computer tomography scanners density by country 2021 | Statista

Computer tomography (CT) scanners are vital medical technology used in the diagnosis and monitoring of various medical conditions.

www.statista.com

Canada ranks worst in the world for wait times and the US ranks second worst (broadly, for specialist care and surgeries):

Healthcare Wait Times by Country 2023 - Wisevoter

Healthcare wait times can vary greatly from country to country and even within countries. For example, in the United States, the average wait time for a primary care physician is roughly 20 minutes, with about 28% of patients being able to meet with a doctor within the day, while specialty care...

wisevoter.com

(Note also that this well sourced data site that has Canada besting the US handily in Health Score, with Canada ranked at 33 and the US way down at 69... but isolating the healthcare systems they rank the US above Canada at 30th to Canada's 35th.)

And, again, that's just scratching the surface with cold hard numbers. You really do need to experience it first hand to grasp how awful it is. Like I said earlier, I have two people in my life with significant (life altering) permanent nerve damage that they really don't need to have. They have it for no otter reason than being forced to wait for procedures that should have been treated much sooner. We brought a kid to emerge last weekend when he dislocated his shoulder at a wrestling tournament. It was two hours before he was even brought into triage, another two to get an x-ray, and another two waiting for the doctor. Luckily the shoulder popped back in while he was waiting, or that's another risk of permanent nerve damage.


The US does spend more per capita than we do... quite a lot more... but let me assure you, we get what we pay for.

 

[NoSmilez]

I'm not seeing many details there, but it looks like these numbers are highly corelated to health scores (the health score of a country is a measure of how healthy the population is and its access to things that promote good health, including healthcare services, but also healthy food, clean air and water, housing security, etc.), and only vaguely related to the healthcare system, through broad and difficult to pin down sorts of factors like "equity" and "administrative efficiency."

But if you look at the specifics, and zero in on the sorts of clear and quantifiable measures that almost anyone collecting this sort of data agrees to be significant, it's looks like this:

Canada has 24 physicians per 10,000 people, to the US's 36:

List of countries by number of physicians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Canada has 2.6 hospital beds per 1000 people and 13 ICU beds per 100,000 people to the US's 2.8 and 29 (as well as 91% occupancy to the US's 64%):

List of countries by hospital beds - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Canada has 10 MRI units per million people to the US's 38:

MRI units density by country 2021 | Statista

Among member countries of the Organization of Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), Japan has the highest density of magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) units.

www.statista.com

Canada has 15 CT scanners per million people to the US's 43:

Computer tomography scanners density by country 2021 | Statista

Computer tomography (CT) scanners are vital medical technology used in the diagnosis and monitoring of various medical conditions.

www.statista.com

Canada ranks worst in the world for wait times and the US ranks second worst (broadly, for specialist care and surgeries):

Healthcare Wait Times by Country 2023 - Wisevoter

Healthcare wait times can vary greatly from country to country and even within countries. For example, in the United States, the average wait time for a primary care physician is roughly 20 minutes, with about 28% of patients being able to meet with a doctor within the day, while specialty care...

wisevoter.com

(Note also that this well sourced data site that has Canada besting the US handily in Health Score, with Canada ranked at 33 and the US way down at 69... but isolating the healthcare systems it they rank the US above us Canada at 30th to Canada's 35th.)

And, again, that's just scratching the surface with cold hard numbers. You really do need to experience it first hand to grasp how awful it is. Like I said earlier, I have two people in my life with significant (life altering) permanent nerve damage that they really don't need to have. The have it for no otter reason than being forced to wait for procedures that should have neem treated much sooner. We brought a kid to emerge last weekend when he dislocated his shoulder at a wrestling tournament. It was two hours before he was even brought into triage, another two to get an x-ray, and another two waiting for the doctor. Luckily the shoulder popped back in while he was waiting, or that's another risk of permanent nerve damage.


The US does spend more per capita than we do... quite a lot more... but let me assure you, we get what we pay for.

Equity just means you receive the highest standard of care regardless of your background. This just doesn’t happen in America.

Administrative bloat is the one of the reasons US healthcare cost is so high. The number of MRI machines is not indicative of a good healthcare system. Overuse of imaging modalities is one of the biggest criticisms to US healthcare. Same with hospital beds. Having more tetiary care facilities like hospitals vs primary care means your healthcare system is not efficient. Having empty beds are a waste of resources. US hospitals have a terrible wait time too. It seems like what you think is a merit is actually what makes the US healthcare system bad.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Equity just means you receive the highest standard of care regardless of your background. This just doesn’t happen in America.

Administrative bloat is the one of the reasons US healthcare is so high. The number is MRI machines aren’t indicative of a good healthcare system. Overuse of imaging modalities is one of the biggest criticisms to US healthcare. Same with hospital beds. Having more tetiary care facilities like hospitals vs primary care means your healthcare system is not efficient. Having empty beds are a waste of resources. US hospitals have a terrible wait time too. It seems like what you think is a merit is actually what makes the US healthcare system bad.

Accessibility is definitely the anchor that brings the US down but actual medical outcomes from direct action items, US is fantastic.

 

[NoSmilez]

Accessibility is definitely the anchor that brings the US down but actual medical outcomes from direct action items, US is fantastic.

There is no doubt US has the best medical treatment options but it's not available to everyone. That has always been the big issue. Your health outcome changes depending on your background.
American can pick and choose what doctors we want as long as we can afford it or they are within the network. US's spending on healthcare isn't based on utilization. It simply cost more than anywhere else. We have short(actually a good thing at least for this country) hospital stays and less doctor visits per capita vs other nations.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

There is no doubt US has the best medical treatment options but it's not available to everyone. That has always been the big issue. Your health outcome changes depending on your background.
American can pick and choose what doctors we want as long as we can afford it or they are within the network. US's spending on healthcare isn't based on utilization. It simply cost more than anywhere else. We have short(actually a good thing at least for this country) hospital stays and less doctor visits per capita vs other nations.

Yeah, I agree. It's just how you interpret that accessibility aspect. I much rather the US system of exclusivity knowing that it results in faster/ better quality.

 

[fedoriswar37]

I appreciate your hedge here but a private option only draws human resources from the public system and make the current acute issue of lack of access even more difficult for most people. Instead, we've got the provincial government here talking about paying people to go to another province for MRI's at a private clinic.

Fuck that shit.

Your beef is with the doctors and the medical system not me. I can drive 1 hour to Buffalo for an mri and get the results that day. Incentivize people to invest in our Healthcare system.