Can someone tell me the difference between Kenpo/Shotokan/Kyokushin?

[NinjaKilla187]

Maybe because before you learn to be a fighting machine, you need to learn balance, coordination, flexibility, discipline, and respect. Those worthless TMA's aren't half bad at helping people with those. :icon_twis

Golly, I bet it would just be *impossible* to learn balance, coordination, flexibility, discipline, respect AND fighting techniques that actually work. I mean, JAYSUS MAN, could such a martial art even exist??

 

[Dog Soldier]

Honestly now what constitutes 'techniques that work'?

If you want something that works for real combat get a CCW permit then learn to shoot and carry a gun. Real combat means weapons in almost all cases.

For sports the rules dictate what does and does not work. IIRC Boxing in ancient Greece involved both fighters sitting on rocks with there noses touching. Those were the rules.

 

[ryouboard]

How did this turn from an honest question about different standup styles to inevitable TMA bashing? Oh yeah. I forgot I was on Sherdog.

 

[NinjaKilla187]

How did this turn from an honest question about different standup styles to inevitable TMA bashing? Oh yeah. I forgot I was on Sherdog.

What is this "bash" you speak of? Dude asked an honest question and I gave an honest answer. Why the near cultish devotion to techniques that don't work?

Traditional Karate is great for a fun hobby and a little costumed role playing at being an ancient Samurai or some such. If you are under the impression that Age Uke and Gedan Barai can actually be used against a trained opponent, please take your video camera down to your local MT or Kickboxing gym and videotape yourself using these techniques to defend yourself.

Post the video here.

Thanks,

Ninja

 

[GrazZ]

Maybe because before you learn to be a fighting machine, you need to learn balance, coordination, flexibility, discipline, and respect. Those worthless TMA's aren't half bad at helping people with those. :icon_twis

well sure, but the amount of time you have to put in to them to get the said benefits is completely disproportional to other things you can do to gain those things at a fraction of the time....if you want to do them for the discipline and respect aspects i agree 100% they are great for that, but they are lacking in the realism department

 

[mvisit1]

Golly, I bet it would just be *impossible* to learn balance, coordination, flexibility, discipline, respect AND fighting techniques that actually work. I mean, JAYSUS MAN, could such a martial art even exist??

I can't speak for ALL schools, but from what I've seen at schools that teach those arts that ACTUALLY work, like where I train MT & BJJ for example, I'm the only one that calls the instructor sir, bows before I step on & off the mat, doesn't curse during class, etc...But I go there because the instructors & their senior students are top notch, have trained with the best, and have vast amounts of knowledge & competition experience

Take away the word Mixed from MMA and you are left with just Martial Arts. I would love to see more people practicing these REAL arts that ACTUALLY work carry themselves like true Martial Artists. Ever watch The Ultimate Fighter? Those damn kids give people like me a bad name. I don't walk around bragging about how I can whoop everyone's ass and threaten to fight anyone that looks at me the wrong way. I like how in TMA's you don't learn certain things in the very beginning, because you don't deserve to. I learned the North/South choke & rolled on my first day of BJJ, and did a lot of boxing/counterpunching drills on my first day of MT.

If I was an asshole with bad intentions, you WOULD NOT want to step on my shoe in a bar.

 

[IMAF#1]

Shotokan is best for standing in front of a mirror practicing stances and defensive techniques that will never work in combat or competition, as well as doing ancient Okinawan Folk Dances known as "kata" where you have another outlet for practicing techniques that won't work outside the dojo. (I have a BB in Shotokan, lucky me...) If you are looking for old school traditional Karate it is A+, for fighting it is C- (see Lyoto Machida for a very notable exception to this, though)

Kenpo is like Shotokan except with a pseudo chinese or (allegedly) Hawaiian influence and black Gi with more corny patches. There are several different flavors. The tend to spar more than Shotokan which is better for fighting. They get in lots of pissing contests about which school/lineage is the more "authentic". They teach goofy "secret" pressure point shit that everyone else in the world already knows about and doesn't work well anyway. They seem to think that "flurries" (also known as combinations everywhere else in the combat world) are some kind of original technique, but at least they do teach combos. The footwork is marginally more useful than TMAs that don't spar much. For TMA I give it about a B. For fighting about a C+.

Kyokushin was the original bare knuckle full contact style started by Mas Oyama. It has also split into several styles. Back in the day it was the shizzle. After waaaaaay too many hand and facial injuries the main style of Kyokushin banned closed fist punches to the head in competition, resulting in it becoming sort of like half-assed Tae Kwon Do. If you can find a Kyokushin Dojo that still works punches to the head it is good stuff. Some of the offshoots also incorporate Judo (Kudo) and have their own system of MMA competition. Hard to find in the US though. For TMA I give it a B+ and fighting a solid B (assuming they are teaching sufficient hand techniques and defense).

If you want good standup and don't care about oriental mysticism, role playing, and wearing costumes try kickboxing or muay thai. Thats just my two cents...

Wow, that is one of the most ignoret posts I've ever seen. I take it you must of spent years and years training in these arts and seeing the results, how else could you say so much BS about these arts. Sereously dude grow up and know about something before you start talking trash about it.

 

[warrior of ruin]

dont quote me on this one but from what i remember of my humble beginings in martial arts.. shotokan karate was rooted in its stances. i recall many lessons involving balance work and trying to have a low centre of gravity... but thats going back maybe 9 years..

 

[ShotokanBB'n'MB]

Nice try.

I studied Shotokan only under ethnically Japanese Sensei's (why is this so important to Karateka?) who were once or twice removed from Funakoshi O'Sensei himself, including a fellow named Tsutomu Oshima. I assume you've heard of him. If not borrow a copy of Karate-Do Kyohan from your own Sensei and crack it open. He'll be the guy in all the pictures.

Actually I dont give a crap if you trained with Funokoshi himself.If you felt like the techniques were worthless than maybe they were. My school and my sensei are an american branch of shotokan called seiei bujitsu kai. this translates to something roughly along the lines of "Elite Military Way" and it also means that if your dojo cant fight then we dont think your sensei is worth a crap. dont get me wrong. fighting isnt everything. but if your training doesnt prepare you for a fight then what good is it. Our kata, our self defense, our training as a whole is for kumite. and thats why we do reasonably well in it. we dont fight point sparring matches. We fight ippon matches where we try to knock the piss out of our opponent. Body is full contact head shots are good so long as no bleeding or swelling

 

[ShotokanBB'n'MB]

Wow, that is one of the most ignoret posts I've ever seen. I take it you must of spent years and years training in these arts and seeing the results, how else could you say so much BS about these arts. Sereously dude grow up and know about something before you start talking trash about it.

hey now for all I went and stated a different opinion than ninja I agree with him on moast of the TMA's out there. The main reason why I argue with him is because I believe that there are those of us out there who train in some good dojo's and dont deserve to be lumped in the the vast majority. This doesnt mean he is wrong. He is just looking at it from a point of view that emphasis's the bad parts of shotokan.

 

[ShotokanBB'n'MB]

dont quote me on this one but from what i remember of my humble beginings in martial arts.. shotokan karate was rooted in its stances. i recall many lessons involving balance work and trying to have a low centre of gravity... but thats going back maybe 9 years..

well I dont think youd call us rooted in our stances. our kata is but for kumite there is no chance whatsoever of you getting that impression.

 

[NinjaKilla187]

Actually I dont give a crap if you trained with Funokoshi himself.If you felt like the techniques were worthless than maybe they were. My school and my sensei are an american branch of shotokan called seiei bujitsu kai. this translates to something roughly along the lines of "Elite Military Way" and it also means that if your dojo cant fight then we dont think your sensei is worth a crap. dont get me wrong. fighting isnt everything. but if your training doesnt prepare you for a fight then what good is it. Our kata, our self defense, our training as a whole is for kumite. and thats why we do reasonably well in it. we dont fight point sparring matches. We fight ippon matches where we try to knock the piss out of our opponent. Body is full contact head shots are good so long as no bleeding or swelling

You will certainly learn at least some fighting skills if you belong to a school that does a substantial amout of hard sparring. I'm skeptical on the Kata bit. If your school is calling itself Shotokan and requires Kata for belt tests I would think they are requiring all of the traditional ones.

And my experience is that what most traditional Karate (old school style Kyokushin is a notable exception) schools call hard sparring isn't all that hard. I recently had some TMA black belts come to my kickboxing class for a while to work on hands. They said they had done a lot of hard sparring. After several weeks of pad drills, bag work and light sparring we picked it up to what I would consider 50% sparring and it was obvious that none of these guys had ever seen a hook or uppercut at combat speed and none of them had ever been punched hard in the head or taken a full power leg kick. They were really not enjoying themselves.

What kind of head and hand protection are you guys using? No bleeding or swelling from head shots sounds like point fighting to me... Even with 16 ouncers and headgear you are going to get bloody noses and fat lips.

 

[devante]

You will certainly learn at least some fighting skills if you belong to a school that does a substantial amout of hard sparring. I'm skeptical on the Kata bit. If your school is calling itself Shotokan and requires Kata for belt tests I would think they are requiring all of the traditional ones.

And my experience is that what most traditional Karate (old school style Kyokushin is a notable exception) schools call hard sparring isn't all that hard. I recently had some TMA black belts come to my kickboxing class for a while to work on hands. They said they had done a lot of hard sparring. After several weeks of pad drills, bag work and light sparring we picked it up to what I would consider 50% sparring and it was obvious that none of these guys had ever seen a hook or uppercut at combat speed and none of them had ever been punched hard in the head or taken a full power leg kick. They were really not enjoying themselves.

What kind of head and hand protection are you guys using? No bleeding or swelling from head shots sounds like point fighting to me... Even with 16 ouncers and headgear you are going to get bloody noses and fat lips.

maybe i keep meeting the exception to the rule; but all of the tma guys i know PERSONALLY, train very hard and spar harder...lots of contact, bruises, swollen lips, etc. i sparred them, an i was pretty impressed w/the contact and speed; an i have been in w/boxers-kickboxers (pro/amateur) b4. An im including kenpo, shotokan and so on; not saying everyone in the world is realistic in their training, but thhe guys i know go hard. Hell my dad trained tkd in korea, an his instructor did continuous/heavy contact sparring and my dad had seperated shoulders, broken fingers, and ko's; cus they didn't just stop if someone got dropped, they were allowed and encouraged to kick and stomp people..not to mention punch them. My dad also had a bit of a boxing and judo background; but often refers to his tkd training as brutal,

all the guys i know may not have had all the tech expertise; but none of them had issues w/the speed or level of contact when sparring diff stylist.

like i said maybe i have met the exceptions to the rules; but all the kenpo shotokan american karate guys and tkd guys i have known were very hard contact in regards to what they took and dished out.
but that is just my exp

 

[voxom]

Exactly, he tailored it by changing the techniques so they actually work. My point precisely. So why not teach the stuff that works from the beginning?

just curious, do you think it is best to only do MMA classes or split up the same amount of time into different parts some classes for BJJ (where you focus on getting good at BJJ) some classes for stand up(where you focus on getting good striking) then some classes for MMA(where you add it all together)??

 

[mvisit1]

just curious, do you think it is best to only do MMA classes or split up the same amount of time into different parts some classes for BJJ (where you focus on getting good at BJJ) some classes for stand up(where you focus on getting good striking) then some classes for MMA(where you add it all together)??

I train Muay Thai, BJJ, & MMA separately and it's time consuming but I love every minute of it. Plus I'm a fan of traditional martial arts so I wanted to learn about Muay Thai and BJJ separately and move up the ranks in them rather than just train MMA. I'm going to do some Amatuer Muay Thai & Grappling Tourneys in the near future and try some Amateur MMA next year.

 

[voxom]

BTW machida claims to still train karate 3 days a week

"TRAINING: Monday, Wednesday, Friday - Karate & Jiu- Jitsu
Tuesday, Thursday, Sat - Muay-Thai, Sparring and Cardio."

UFC

 

[NinjaKilla187]

My dad also had a bit of a boxing and judo background; but often refers to his tkd training as brutal,

all the guys i know may not have had all the tech expertise; but none of them had issues w/the speed or level of contact when sparring diff stylist.

I was stationed in Korea.

The hard core TKD schools in Korea can get a little extreme for sure. Some of it is just stupid. I have seen guys standing in the surf in 40 degree weather doing punches and kicks until people go hypothermic.

Koreans have much different ideas about how much contact is actually going to hurt you and will happily kick the shit out of each other just for fun. The problem with TKD in Korea or anywhere else is that the hand techniques suck and the rules lead to use of techniques that will get you mauled fighting guys in other systems.

It is fun as hell if you have the apptitude for it. Tornado kicks and jump spinning back kicks are a blast, just not that realistic for fighting.

 

[mvisit1]

I was stationed in Korea.

The hard core TKD schools in Korea can get a little extreme for sure. Some of it is just stupid. I have seen guys standing in the surf in 40 degree weather doing punches and kicks until people go hypothermic.

Koreans have much different ideas about how much contact is actually going to hurt you and will happily kick the shit out of each other just for fun. The problem with TKD in Korea or anywhere else is that the hand techniques suck and the rules lead to use of techniques that will get you mauled fighting guys in other systems.

It is fun as hell if you have the apptitude for it. Tornado kicks and jump spinning back kicks are a blast, just not that realistic for fighting.

It depends on who you're up against...a well timed/placed back spin kick to the face can get a KO if the other guy has never been up against a TKD guy. It was one of my favorite counters in tourney sparring and it works well against TKD guys, imagine how well it would work against a grappler with crappy standup or someone coming in on you lazy that's never seen it before

YouTube - Taekwondo Knockouts 2

 

[devante]

I was stationed in Korea.

The hard core TKD schools in Korea can get a little extreme for sure. Some of it is just stupid. I have seen guys standing in the surf in 40 degree weather doing punches and kicks until people go hypothermic.

Koreans have much different ideas about how much contact is actually going to hurt you and will happily kick the shit out of each other just for fun. The problem with TKD in Korea or anywhere else is that the hand techniques suck and the rules lead to use of techniques that will get you mauled fighting guys in other systems.

It is fun as hell if you have the apptitude for it. Tornado kicks and jump spinning back kicks are a blast, just not that realistic for fighting.

all i was saying is my dad had a blkblt in judo and a boxing background; an even he felt the sparring was up to snuff, as far as contact intensity speed. An his trainer let them use throws, shoots, gnp; so people tailored their kicks to be more eff and to counter adjust to the timing/spacing angles necessary to apply them.

but u and i have the same point of view on things, i think the way i say it comes off more palatable to most people

 

[ShotokanBB'n'MB]

You will certainly learn at least some fighting skills if you belong to a school that does a substantial amout of hard sparring. I'm skeptical on the Kata bit. If your school is calling itself Shotokan and requires Kata for belt tests I would think they are requiring all of the traditional ones.

And my experience is that what most traditional Karate (old school style Kyokushin is a notable exception) schools call hard sparring isn't all that hard. I recently had some TMA black belts come to my kickboxing class for a while to work on hands. They said they had done a lot of hard sparring. After several weeks of pad drills, bag work and light sparring we picked it up to what I would consider 50% sparring and it was obvious that none of these guys had ever seen a hook or uppercut at combat speed and none of them had ever been punched hard in the head or taken a full power leg kick. They were really not enjoying themselves.

What kind of head and hand protection are you guys using? No bleeding or swelling from head shots sounds like point fighting to me... Even with 16 ouncers and headgear you are going to get bloody noses and fat lips.

We do the traditional kata plus some, we use it for more conditioning and endurance type stuff. The kumite is point sparring. What Iv been saying since day one about our point sparring is that its not light contact. I would term it medium contact. We hit hard to the body and we like to hit hard to the face but this normally gets us disqualified. In our dojo itself we just train hard man. We know we dont do full contact and we dont try to play that game. I personally have taken the full on leg kicks and seen hooks and uppercuts though the dude throwing them wasnt going full out. This was because the dude was named maurice travis. He is a Muay Thai fighter who has fought Ernesto Hoost(though he lost). We just try and take our techniques and use them in a manner that allows us to utilize them efficiently. I have also been struck full on in the face. The karate nationals last year I came back with a concussion and a cracked rib. Im not saying that shotokan is the best art or that my school is the best. But I do believe that we try and improve ourselves constantly.

I really think it boils down to this. You believe, like many other karateka, that karate is a set of moves designed to be utilized in a certain way. Many uber traditional senseis believe the same way, which is why the art is outdated.

We believe that the art must evolve without losing its traditional values. That discipline and respect for your sensei while continuously trying to improve oneself is what the art is about. Not who your sensei is or what style you use. Karate is a way of life because you are constantly learning. Not because of some friggin philosophy.