Can someone tell me the difference between Kenpo/Shotokan/Kyokushin?

[mvisit1]

I belive you missed his point with that comment, but im sure he will explain it better :icon_chee

I understood just fine. By this logic I should stop doing squats and bicep curls because I don't use those motions when I fight either. I also understand that some people think they are God's gift and that they do everything right and know more than anyone else and feel the need to prove this to themselves by using venues such as forums. No matter what anyone else says or does, NinjaKilla has his mind made up, TMA's are worthless.

 

[devante]

Exactly, he tailored it by changing the techniques so they actually work. My point precisely. So why not teach the stuff that works from the beginning?

I did the same thing Lyoto and other Shotokan Karateka have for generations; learned a bunch of stuff in the Dojo that didn't work and had to adapt it for use in Kumite, then started fighting in tournaments and discovered even more of the stuff I learned in the Dojo didn't work and adapted to even more stuff that did.

If you do this for long enough you wake up one day and discover that you are basically a self-taught kickboxer. This is not an efficient way to train and requires years of adjusting to unlearn the stuff that doesn't work.

im just asking isnt it the same w/every art; not saying they aren't more effective as a base are, but bjj-boxing-judo-kickboxing-muay thai-sambo- all have to be tailored. Whether its to mma or its to self def, anytime u use them in a diff environment or against diff stylist u have to modify or adjust.

now diff arts need less modification; BUT all arts have to be modified, that is why we have bjj- sport bjj-self def bjj-same thing w/judo and various other arts.

im not attacking u or trying to questioning ur knowledge or opinion, just stating a fact; if lyoto feels shotokan has done him some kind of good and he is a top level 205 guy (sok, rich, penn, nak, heath) all being on his ledger. Then i have to give it some of its due, i've seen marcus hicks use karate eff, mezger has used it in mma (its obv if u watch him), jeff foster, and so on.

im not saying it is super eff, esp in the cage; im saying when modified and trained in an environment conducive to where it will be used it can and will be eff, an example i had a friend who did karate. He intially trained w/wrestlers-bjj-judoka, etc; he used to get handled w/out being able to land a strike, but after a period of time he began to get his spacing, timing right and learn which strikes were the most effective. He also learned which adjustments he had to make in regards to how and where he placed them; through osmosis he learned how to def, and get back up whnen brought down. But to my point he learned who maximize his footwork, pick, place and sit on shots so as to be more effective w/them; not just being able to off hurt them, but def keep them honest.

same issue diff side of the coin, i had a bjj guy who got challenged to a fight w/a boxer w/a lil wrestling experience; the bjj guy tried to do straight bjj, like there was no striking standing or on the ground and got handled. Because he didn't train or make adjustments, he treated it like it was another bjj match or that his opp would lack skills necessary to make him pay for his lack of adjustment.

but i agree w/ur point-not trying to step on toes-but do u see mine

 

[mvisit1]

It all comes back to the fighter and not the style...Whoever has better instincts, is faster, stronger, more aggressive, more technical, executes their gameplan to perfection, etc. will win. No one wins because their style is better.

 

[T.J.T]

It all comes back to the fighter and not the style...Whoever has better instincts, is faster, stronger, more aggressive, more technical, executes their gameplan to perfection, etc. will win. No one wins because their style is better.

The argument is when you get to the top 5 fighters in the world, its usualy the style that DOES make the fights. Why you ask? Because usualy the top teir fighters all train relativly as hard, are usualy as well trained, and as strong, thats why you see people say "styles make fights"

 

[ShotokanBB'n'MB]

Dudes Ninjakiller aside I really have to say that the effectiveness of your style has a lot to do with how your taught. I personally think his sensei blew but thats just my opinion. here is my weigh in

shotokan- This style is extremely good at learning long range tech and closing the distance. The "SPORT" fighters are very focused on long and mid range stuff and they also insist on clean controlled tech. This makes the karate fighter more susceptible to the brawler style of fighter. The inside fighting game is very big in full contact and I feel that shotokan doesnt emphasis this enough. Shotokan also has a large variety of techniques that are very specialized and dont translate well to this breed of fighting. Unlike most karateka I dont have a problem with low kicks. I just kick you in the face and we trade that way. This style is very adept at a large score of things but conditioning and practical application are not always taught. A lot of them also teach some bull crap to commercialize the art. Personally I like the art and I like to hit so take it what you will.

Kyokushin- awesome conditioning and mid to short range techniques. Very focused on taking your opponent out. Has some weaknesses in that the head punches aren't there but dojo training can compensate for this. I havent actually trained any of this but I really like the kicks they use and have been working on them.

Kempo- I dont know jack about this except it is a more hand oriented art than shotokan. It is also a cousin art of both shotokan and kyokushin

 

[Jake Martin]

The argument is when you get to the top 5 fighters in the world, its usualy the style that DOES make the fights. Why you ask? Because usualy the top teir fighters all train relativly as hard, are usualy as well trained, and as strong, thats why you see people say "styles make fights"

Styles do make fights, but I think the 'style' being referred to is something personal to the fighter. They would have that style whether they were boxing, kickboxing, or cooking. It's not something inherent to the art, it's a combination of a person's abilities and skills, plus their mindset that makes their 'style'. If it were any other way, anytime a boxer fought a boxer, it would be the same style.

I hope I'm getting my point about the distinction across.

edit: Woah boy, the Karateka are making their presence known now :icon_chee

 

[ShotokanBB'n'MB]

im just asking isnt it the same w/every art; not saying they aren't more effective as a base are, but bjj-boxing-judo-kickboxing-muay thai-sambo- all have to be tailored. Whether its to mma or its to self def, anytime u use them in a diff environment or against diff stylist u have to modify or adjust.

now diff arts need less modification; BUT all arts have to be modified, that is why we have bjj- sport bjj-self def bjj-same thing w/judo and various other arts.

im not attacking u or trying to questioning ur knowledge or opinion, just stating a fact; if lyoto feels shotokan has done him some kind of good and he is a top level 205 guy (sok, rich, penn, nak, heath) all being on his ledger. Then i have to give it some of its due, i've seen marcus hicks use karate eff, mezger has used it in mma (its obv if u watch him), jeff foster, and so on.

im not saying it is super eff, esp in the cage; im saying when modified and trained in an environment conducive to where it will be used it can and will be eff, an example i had a friend who did karate. He intially trained w/wrestlers-bjj-judoka, etc; he used to get handled w/out being able to land a strike, but after a period of time he began to get his spacing, timing right and learn which strikes were the most effective. He also learned which adjustments he had to make in regards to how and where he placed them; through osmosis he learned how to def, and get back up whnen brought down. But to my point he learned who maximize his footwork, pick, place and sit on shots so as to be more effective w/them; not just being able to off hurt them, but def keep them honest.

same issue diff side of the coin, i had a bjj guy who got challenged to a fight w/a boxer w/a lil wrestling experience; the bjj guy tried to do straight bjj, like there was no striking standing or on the ground and got handled. Because he didn't train or make adjustments, he treated it like it was another bjj match or that his opp would lack skills necessary to make him pay for his lack of adjustment.

but i agree w/ur point-not trying to step on toes-but do u see mine

I agree with the tailoring the style to the fight

 

[ShotokanBB'n'MB]

you realize that shotokan and kyokushin use almost the exact same kata, and practice stances???

heh actualy I just learned some kyokushin kata. good stuff.

 

[ddkk]

heres a kenpo black belts two cents the techs and the katas the long horse stance are all just to mold and teach your body and mind how to move and help with placement of shots to create muscle memory. with out real time sparring (not point sparring) it all can go to waste. ive sparred mt guys that kick a bag and throw a one two combo for a year. and the sec they tried to throw that big back leg round house i got my little front ball kick in first that caught the groin every time and throw them off and im a fat 300lbs.no talent mexican(so im not to tall either lol)i cant say mt doesnt work and would dare to cause the art is sick. american kenpo does have a lot of techs that people would say are just flash and wont work in real time and it very well may be true and a lot of kenpoist argue about who this and that is wrong im right but american kepo has worked for me. and i think its givin me avery good base for what ever mma or tma i try in the futrue. the art/sytem is only as good as the person doing it idk just my opinon

p.s. sorry for spelling and grammer i know i suck at it

 

[RJ Powell**]

mvisit you are being way too bitter here, all you are doing is attacking ninjakilla out of anger without bringing up decent points, we dont need that.. You are also jumping to huge conclusions. He did NOT say TMAs are worthless, he just said they are less effective and efficient in a combat setting. Stop putting words in his mouth.

 

[mvisit1]

mvisit you are being way too bitter here, all you are doing is attacking ninjakilla out of anger without bringing up decent points, we dont need that.. You are also jumping to huge conclusions. He did NOT say TMAs are worthless, he just said they are less effective and efficient in a combat setting. Stop putting words in his mouth.

I've made points if you go back and look. Also, if you go back and look he DOES insinuate that TMA's are worthless, whether or not he ACTUALLY comes out and says it.

 

[RJ Powell**]

He actually gave some credit to "TMAs" in his first post in this thread man. But i guess your just gonna overlook that.

 

[franz_grinder]

If you take a look at Machida you'll see what Shotokan's rules and point stops can do for your training. They make you very elusive. You really don't want to be hit. Kyokushinka, although varied, are definately a little more bull-headed in their striking approach.

 

[Pro Killer]

I think the orginal poster with the BB in shootokan was a little harsh on it. I've never tried it for myself but after the Boxers and Wrestlers in my town that I know I rank the Shootokan fighters ahead of the MT fighters as far a fighting on the street goes and that's a fair comparison imo as both styles are stand-up.
It depends on the dojo at the end of the day. Don't really know much about Kenpo except Chuck did it but didnt really find it effective.

KK is regarded widely as the best form of Karate but again thats word of mouth and not personal experience!

 

[mvisit1]

He actually gave some credit to "TMAs" in his first post in this thread man. But i guess your just gonna overlook that.

Some credit? What is your definition of "some"? You couldn't detect sarcasm if it bit you in the ass.

 

[RJ Powell**]

wtf u really think that was sarcasm? He was giving a levelheaded assessment of the arts themselves. He did have a few snide remarks in there, but the rest of it was serious. I think you are just butthurt.

I have achieved 1st dan and have prior experience in all of the arts he mentioned, and i believe what he is saying is a pretty accurate portrayal. Being effective in fighting isn't everything there is to martial arts, there are other aspects like spiritual development and cultivation of a winning attitude. You act like the sky is falling just because someone said your art is a little less efficient in terms of ring combat than other styles that have been ring tested again and again.

I hate when people discredit the ring fighters that are training their asses off day in and day out, they deserve their credit for being willing to actually test out their arts in a controlled environment. If you ever went to thailand you would see the pure determination that these guys carry in their hearts along with they're exellent conditioning and overall toughness. It's like you guys want to have your cake and eat it too, well you can't unless you prove yourselves time and time again.

EDIT: and for the record, my "TMA" training did help me a little bit physically when i decided to train in boxing and muay thai, my TKD and Kyokushinkai training gave me more effective high kicks, unlike MT high kicks, i chamber mine and whip it to my opponent's temple, it is a little bit weaker, but faster and easier to recover, with JUST ENOUGH power to KO someone, i just think the MT method of coming over hard and chopping down the neck is overkill, it doesn't take too much blunt force to KO someone with a headkick. But that is just me.

I also mix chambered roundhouses with Thai roundhouses when i spar just to mix things up and confuse my opponent, with quickness one time, and power the next time.

But imagine how much time i could've spent training in Muay Thai and Boxing and SPARRING instead of doing katas. I would be much better off now. I would trade all my years of fancy low percentage kicks for a clinch game, masterful basic techniques, and just plain fighting experience any day.

 

[Deleted member 87037]

I started off Muay Thai for 3 months and quit. I couldn't stand the teaching - there was no fluidity (the style is great, I mean the teachers - I had approx 20 different teachers [students lots of the time]) and I just wasn't feeling it.

After researching other striking arts, I was dead-set on taking Kyokushin (presumably the 'best' style of Karate - and it has a lot of emphasis on kicks which I like/d). The Kyokushin dojo within 30 minutes of me had a poor reputation, though. The only other one near me I was unable to reach without a car (I was 16 at the time; 18 now). SO, I took Goju-Ryu Karate. I've been happy with it for the past two years. I'm VERY comfortable with my front/side/and round kick (working on spinning back) and can use them at all heights with ease. I'm confident these would help me to win any street-fight I got into (that someone else started) w/ someone w/out MA training.

We haven't learned that many different kicks, though - we just stick to variations of front/side/round for the most part. We just do far too much Kata, and it's starting to really get to me. I don't want to leave the dojo, but I feel so much time is 'wasted' (hesitant to say that) in repeating the same sequence of moves, which I find difficult to adapt to real-life situations. Though, the bankai (self-defence) work extremely well for what they are - self defence. We practice joint locks, throws, breaks, things like that.

ANYWAYS, it's really down to whether or not you want to start ring fighting or just want to know how to fight when the time presents itself (on the street). My recommendation..go with Kyokushin - just make sure the dojo is legit.

 

[RJ Powell**]

^ i agree, it all depends on your goals. Some people could give two shits about MMA, some want to compete, some just like their art, but it seems that everyone wants to get into some type of macho pissing contest about which art is BETTER.

It all depends on what your definition of BETTER is, and in what context, so basically this whole argument is moot.

 

[T.J.T]

My only grip about the 5 months ive spent training MT, is that i didnt start this 5-10 years ago. I love the art and find it fits my style really well. Im not going to lie, ive never been comfortable bouncing around throwing a bunch of fancy things(not saying mt doesnt have these but i like the focus on power with this art) and from what ive learnt in MT i love the whole aspect and teaching ive recieved.

That being said I in no way think my "art" is better or worse i just thought i would add this to the post. I guess i was just trying to show with the above poster, all these arts will fit people diffrently depending on there "style" of learning, so i dont think you can really say anything is compleatly useless, just maybe not something that is for you.

Also RJ Powell basicly sumed up my first response to you mvisit1, I belive you were either interpreting ninja wrong or you were putting words in his mouth.

 

[mvisit1]

You act like the sky is falling just because someone said your art is a little less efficient in terms of ring combat than other styles that have been ring tested again and again.

I didn't think the sky was falling, the traditional martial arts I grew up doing weren't even called into question.

I hate when people discredit the ring fighters that are training their asses off day in and day out, they deserve their credit for being willing to actually test out their arts in a controlled environment. If you ever went to thailand you would see the pure determination that these guys carry in their hearts along with they're exellent conditioning and overall toughness. It's like you guys want to have your cake and eat it too, well you can't unless you prove yourselves time and time again.

I have A LOT of respect for ring fighters, I'm working on becoming one. When did I discredit ring fighters? All I've been trying to do the whole time was give credit to traditional martial arts

But imagine how much time i could've spent training in Muay Thai and Boxing and SPARRING instead of doing katas. I would be much better off now. I would trade all my years of fancy low percentage kicks for a clinch game, masterful basic techniques, and just plain fighting experience any day.

You can't spar ALL of the time. Especially not in the beginning. Masterful basic techniques are built through drill and repitition, much like those katas everyone hates. I hate the stigma around the word kata. What is a kata but a series of moves memorized in a particular order and practiced over and over? You do have 15-18 count series' that you drill in Muay Thai, don't you?