BREXIT Discussion, v4.0: The Back-Pedaling

[Hard To Tell]

At the end of the day people don't like large scale immigration and the unfettered multiculturalism at all costs that has become like a state religion which everyone is forced to follow. And it's not just the UK, the whole of Europe is the same, poeple are pissed off. No amount of bullying, propaganda and brainwashing is going to change this.

Ironically, the metropolitan elite who are the biggest champions of immigration and multiculturalism, don't really like it either when push comes to shove as they almost always choose not to live amongst it. They just have the luxery of engaging in self-righteous pontification from the comfort and safety of their affluent, leavy suburbs. 'Do as I say, not as I do'.

 

[lifelessheap]

Always going to be idiots but the corporate media are clearly pushing a narrative to smear the leave supporters and supress any anti-EU, anti-globalist, anti-establishment sentiment. It's the same routine whenever there's an Islamic terror attack, report that Muslim are now the victims of increasing racist hate crime, when the truth is you could easily find such uncommon, isolated incidents and portray them as being rampant at any time if you wanted to

It's just more propaganda to keep people scared, paranoid and at each others throats.

But for some balance, just look at this from the pro EU ralley in London

Someone should have attacked them. Racists deserve a beating.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Rex Murphy with more on Brexit:

Rex Murphy: Those who voted to leave the EU weren’t stupid. They were just angry. And with cause

The Remain crowd have proved to be sore losers, with their flood of excoriation, mockery, denigration and raw anger directed at those who voted to leave the European Union.

Rationalizing a loss is, of course, not a new phenomenon. But building a rationalization on the idea that the crowd you lost to cannot, as the phrase has it, walk and chew gum at the same time, is a novel excursion. If you lost to a pack of fools and social Neanderthals, and if you lost with your side having all respectable opinion, the organs of academia, the press and business interests on your side, then it should prompt some serious and not-too-flattering introspection. In a nutshell, if the Leave side was so stupid and out of touch with everything in the modern age, how on earth did Remain, with all that intelligence and authority, lose the vote?

Not only are the losers displaying bad political manners, they are also blind to the real reasons why they lost. Do any of the Remain campaigners acknowledge the great file of complaints that has grown over the last decade about the EU’s style of governance, its increasing distance from any superintending authority other than its own, its absolute divorce from democratic responsibility and the furiously paternalistic and near-imperial manner in which it treats the representatives and citizens of its member states?

I think a lot of people who voted Leave saw a massive power grab underway, the creation of a super-entity that had contempt for local sensibilities, was insulated from every notion of accountability and regarded the individual citizens of its forced-march member states as kulaks and peasants of a new order. No wonder the Europhiles lost. Those who voted to leave weren’t stupid. They were just angry. And with cause.

source: http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...nt-stupid-they-were-just-angry-and-with-cause

 

[Devout Pessimist]

A sophisticated and intellectual discussion on Brexit featuring Peter Robinson.

 

[Fox by the Sea]

 

[Arkain2K]

Angela Merkel 'to oust Jean-Claude Juncker' as Europe splits deepen over Brexit response
Peter Foster
3 July 2016

Angela Merkel could move to oust Europe’s federalist chief Jean-Claude Juncker 'within the next year', a Germany government minister has said, in a sign of deepening European divisions over how to respond to Britain’s Brexit vote.

The German chancellor’s frustration with the European Commission chief came as Europe split over whether to use the Brexit negotiations as a trigger to deepen European integration or take a more pragmatic approach to Britain as it heads for the exit door.

“The pressure on him [Juncker] to resign will only become greater and Chancellor Merkel will eventually have to deal with this next year,” an unnamed German minister told The Sunday Times, adding that Berlin had been furious with Mr Juncker “gloating” over the UK referendum result.

Mr Juncker’s constant and unabashed calls for “more Europe”, has led to several of Europe other dissenting members – including Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic – to lay some of the blame for Brexit at his door.

Even before he was appointed President of the European Commission - against the wishes of David Cameron - concerns were raised about Mr Juncker's alchohol consumption which were dismissed as a "smear campaign" by his officials.

At the time The Telegraph and several other newspapers reported officials worrying about Mr Juncker having "cognac for breakfast" and rolling through long negotiations fortified with large quantities of claret and brandy.

A week before the UK referendum vote a video emerged of an apparently-drunk Mr Juncker taken at a May 2015 EU summit welcoming Viktor Orban, the hardline Hungarian prime minister, as "the dictator" before giving him a playful slap on the cheek.

"The dictator is coming," Mr Juncker is heard to say, before locking a shocked Mr Orban in a clumsy embrace while Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council looked on, visibly embarrassed.

Since the June 23 vote both the Czech and Polish foreign ministers have called publicly for Mr Juncker to resign – moves that one senior EU official dismissed last week as “predictable”. However, the rumblings from Berlin now represent a much more serious threat to Mr Juncker’s tenure.

The split also offers a glimmer of hope for British negotiators who are preparing for fractious EU-UK divorce talks and are desperate to avoid a repeat of February’s failed negotiations which - controlled as they were by Mr Juncker and the Commission - left David Cameron without enough ‘wins’ to avoid Brexit.

“Everyone is determined that this negotiation is handled in the European Council – i.e. between the 27 heads of government – and not by the Commission, the eurocrats and the EU ‘theologians’ in Brussels,” a senior UK source told The Telegraph.

In a signal that battle has partly already been won, Mrs Merkel pointedly met with French and Italian leaders in Berlin last week, excluding Mr Juncker from the conversation.

The Commission has also declined to fight the Council for the role “chief negotiator”, according to an account of a meeting of senior EU officials seen by The Telegraph.

British strategists hope that creating a much broader negotiation that includes the UK’s role in keeping Europe geopolitically relevant through its deep Nato ties, defence contributions and links to Washington, they can avoid a narrow tit-for-tat negotiation on trade where the UK has only very limited leverage.

Mrs Merkel’s anger reflects a growing schism in Europe between those, like Mr Juncker and the French and Belgian leaders, who want to see “more Europe” after Brexit, and those, like Mrs Merkel and her powerful finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble who believe that would be “crazy”.

Prior to the Brexit vote senior European Commission officials were privately jubilant about the opportunity that a British ‘leave’ vote would present to complete the European project, sucking reluctant countries like Poland into the Euro “within five years”.

Since Brexit, French ministers have been far less conciliatory to the UK than German, openly salivating at the prospect of UK-based financial businesses relocating to Paris, with Francois Hollande, the French President, saying that the UK must not delay and “face the consequences”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...t-jean-claude-juncker-as-europe-splits-deepe/

 

[Abezal]

lol wow what cluster fuck of elitist scum fighting for power the Eu is hilariously becoming.

Crumble you evil fucking totalitarian empire crumble.

 

[Halge]

Angela Merkel 'to oust Jean-Claude Juncker' as Europe splits deepen over Brexit response
Peter Foster
3 July 2016

Angela Merkel could move to oust Europe’s federalist chief Jean-Claude Juncker 'within the next year', a Germany government minister has said, in a sign of deepening European divisions over how to respond to Britain’s Brexit vote.

The German chancellor’s frustration with the European Commission chief came as Europe split over whether to use the Brexit negotiations as a trigger to deepen European integration or take a more pragmatic approach to Britain as it heads for the exit door.

“The pressure on him [Juncker] to resign will only become greater and Chancellor Merkel will eventually have to deal with this next year,” an unnamed German minister told The Sunday Times, adding that Berlin had been furious with Mr Juncker “gloating” over the UK referendum result.

Mr Juncker’s constant and unabashed calls for “more Europe”, has led to several of Europe other dissenting members – including Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic – to lay some of the blame for Brexit at his door.

Even before he was appointed President of the European Commission - against the wishes of David Cameron - concerns were raised about Mr Juncker's alchohol consumption which were dismissed as a "smear campaign" by his officials.

At the time The Telegraph and several other newspapers reported officials worrying about Mr Juncker having "cognac for breakfast" and rolling through long negotiations fortified with large quantities of claret and brandy.

A week before the UK referendum vote a video emerged of an apparently-drunk Mr Juncker taken at a May 2015 EU summit welcoming Viktor Orban, the hardline Hungarian prime minister, as "the dictator" before giving him a playful slap on the cheek.

"The dictator is coming," Mr Juncker is heard to say, before locking a shocked Mr Orban in a clumsy embrace while Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council looked on, visibly embarrassed.

Since the June 23 vote both the Czech and Polish foreign ministers have called publicly for Mr Juncker to resign – moves that one senior EU official dismissed last week as “predictable”. However, the rumblings from Berlin now represent a much more serious threat to Mr Juncker’s tenure.

The split also offers a glimmer of hope for British negotiators who are preparing for fractious EU-UK divorce talks and are desperate to avoid a repeat of February’s failed negotiations which - controlled as they were by Mr Juncker and the Commission - left David Cameron without enough ‘wins’ to avoid Brexit.

“Everyone is determined that this negotiation is handled in the European Council – i.e. between the 27 heads of government – and not by the Commission, the eurocrats and the EU ‘theologians’ in Brussels,” a senior UK source told The Telegraph.

In a signal that battle has partly already been won, Mrs Merkel pointedly met with French and Italian leaders in Berlin last week, excluding Mr Juncker from the conversation.

The Commission has also declined to fight the Council for the role “chief negotiator”, according to an account of a meeting of senior EU officials seen by The Telegraph.

British strategists hope that creating a much broader negotiation that includes the UK’s role in keeping Europe geopolitically relevant through its deep Nato ties, defence contributions and links to Washington, they can avoid a narrow tit-for-tat negotiation on trade where the UK has only very limited leverage.

Mrs Merkel’s anger reflects a growing schism in Europe between those, like Mr Juncker and the French and Belgian leaders, who want to see “more Europe” after Brexit, and those, like Mrs Merkel and her powerful finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble who believe that would be “crazy”.

Prior to the Brexit vote senior European Commission officials were privately jubilant about the opportunity that a British ‘leave’ vote would present to complete the European project, sucking reluctant countries like Poland into the Euro “within five years”.

Since Brexit, French ministers have been far less conciliatory to the UK than German, openly salivating at the prospect of UK-based financial businesses relocating to Paris, with Francois Hollande, the French President, saying that the UK must not delay and “face the consequences”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...t-jean-claude-juncker-as-europe-splits-deepe/

Very good. Getting rid of some of the current figureheads of the union (well, most of them, really) would go a long way towards easing resentment towards it. The toxic and anachronistic attitude of romantics like Junker is getting in the way of objective evaluation of the EUs merits. Every time he opens his mouth, thousands of europeans turn eurosceptic. EU representatives should keep a significantly lower profile overall. No one likes jumped up clerks.

 

[Arkain2K]

Very good. Getting rid of some of the current figureheads of the union (well, most of them, really) would go a long way towards easing resentment towards it. The toxic and anachronistic attitude of romantics like Junker is getting in the way of objective evaluation of the EUs merits. Every time he opens his mouth, thousands of europeans turn eurosceptic. EU representatives should keep a significantly lower profile overall. No one likes jumped up clerks.

I also suspect Hollande's repeatedly plunging his knife into the Brits' back before/during/after the E.U summit is not just for the French's national interests, but also to score cheap domestic points before their national election.

Everytime he say something hawkish about Brexit, I can't help but mutter "You opportunistic frog!"

Kinda ironic that the Germans may prove to be better allies to the Brits at the E.U Council's Brexit negotiation table than the French.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

 

[Space]

Britain didn't leave Europe, it left the EU.

I don't know what dummies like you don't understand about that.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

 

[Arkain2K]

Wow, now they're trying to stall the inevitable by getting the lawyers involved, while hiding behind anonymity.

U.K government faces pre-emptive legal action over Brexit decision
Law firm says article 50 cannot be triggered without full debate and vote by parliament
Owen Bowcott
4 July 2016

​

A prominent law firm is taking pre-emptive legal action against the government, following the EU referendum result, to try to ensure article 50 is not triggered without an act of parliament.

Acting on behalf of an anonymous group of clients, solicitors at Mishcon de Reya have been in contact with government lawyers to seek assurances over the process, and plan to pursue it through the courts if they are not satisfied. The law firm has retained the services of senior constitutional barristers, including Lord Pannick QC and Rhodri Thompson QC.

Their initiative relies upon the ambiguous wording of article 50 of the Treaty on European Union, which sets out how states could leave the EU. The first clause declares: “Any member state may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.”

One of the grounds of a likely challenge to the referendum is that it is merely advisory and the royal prerogative cannot be used to undermine parliamentary statute.

According to Mishcon de Reya, the decision to trigger article 50 rests with the representatives of the people under the UK constitution. The firm has been in correspondence with the government since 27 June “to seek assurances that the government will uphold the UK constitution and protect the sovereignty of parliament in invoking article 50”.

Kasra Nouroozi, a partner at Mishcon de Reya, said: “We must ensure that the government follows the correct process to have legal certainty and protect the UK constitution and the sovereignty of parliament in these unprecedented circumstances. The result of the referendum is not in doubt, but we need a process that follows UK law to enact it. The outcome of the referendum itself is not legally binding and for the current or future prime minister to invoke article 50 without the approval of parliament is unlawful.

“We must make sure this is done properly for the benefit of all UK citizens. Article 50 simply cannot be invoked without a full debate and vote in parliament. Everyone in Britain needs the government to apply the correct constitutional process and allow parliament to fulfil its democratic duty, which is to take into account the results of the referendum along with other factors and make the ultimate decision.”

The UK does not have a formal written constitution, so some lawyers have been dismissive of the legality of legal intervention, while others have been pressing for clearer guidance on the constitutional procedure.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/201...de-whether-or-not-to-leave-the-eu-say-lawyers

 

[Doctor Axel]

Rex Murphy with more on Brexit:

Rex Murphy: Those who voted to leave the EU weren’t stupid. They were just angry. And with cause

The Remain crowd have proved to be sore losers, with their flood of excoriation, mockery, denigration and raw anger directed at those who voted to leave the European Union.

Rationalizing a loss is, of course, not a new phenomenon. But building a rationalization on the idea that the crowd you lost to cannot, as the phrase has it, walk and chew gum at the same time, is a novel excursion. If you lost to a pack of fools and social Neanderthals, and if you lost with your side having all respectable opinion, the organs of academia, the press and business interests on your side, then it should prompt some serious and not-too-flattering introspection. In a nutshell, if the Leave side was so stupid and out of touch with everything in the modern age, how on earth did Remain, with all that intelligence and authority, lose the vote?

Not only are the losers displaying bad political manners, they are also blind to the real reasons why they lost. Do any of the Remain campaigners acknowledge the great file of complaints that has grown over the last decade about the EU’s style of governance, its increasing distance from any superintending authority other than its own, its absolute divorce from democratic responsibility and the furiously paternalistic and near-imperial manner in which it treats the representatives and citizens of its member states?

I think a lot of people who voted Leave saw a massive power grab underway, the creation of a super-entity that had contempt for local sensibilities, was insulated from every notion of accountability and regarded the individual citizens of its forced-march member states as kulaks and peasants of a new order. No wonder the Europhiles lost. Those who voted to leave weren’t stupid. They were just angry. And with cause.

source: http://news.nationalpost.com/full-c...nt-stupid-they-were-just-angry-and-with-cause

Voting to leave something you know little about and without knowing the full consequences of your decision was very stupid no matter how hard this guy tries to rationalize it.
But i do agree with him that the Remain supporters and ppl. who didnt bother to go vote and now protest the results need to grow up and accept the result as a valid and perfectly democratic one.

Now UK, could you please man up, invoke article 50, and fuck off from our union?
Thank you.

 

[whougonnacall]

Voting to leave something you know little about and without knowing the full consequences of your decision was very stupid no matter how hard this guy tries to rationalize it.
But i do agree with him that the Remain supporters and ppl. who didnt bother to go vote and now protest the results need to grow up and accept the result as a valid and perfectly democratic one.

Now UK, could you please man up, invoke article 50, and fuck off from our union?
Thank you.

Lol the leadership contest needs to be resolved first bro ...cameron is distancing his ass from this clusterfuck , the tories won an election off an image of financial responsibility and economic stability he aint wanting to kill that.

The issue is the leave camp was not just full of lies but a mismash of ideas about what comes next so now theres a fight over both who gets to lead the uk out and in what way

Simply put someone needs to step up and lead the place to a single unified vision of what brexits gonna be until then they will dither with the eu while knifefighting amongst themselves for the top seat

 

[KnightTemplar]

And minutes later the train derails.

 

[Fox by the Sea]

Britain didn't leave Europe, it left the EU.

I don't know what dummies like you don't understand about that.

why the fuck are you so bitter?
relax.

 

[JDragon]

So Nigel Farage stepped down as UKIP chief.

 

[Abezal]

Voting to leave something you know little about and without knowing the full consequences of your decision was very stupid no matter how hard this guy tries to rationalize it.
But i do agree with him that the Remain supporters and ppl. who didnt bother to go vote and now protest the results need to grow up and accept the result as a valid and perfectly democratic one.

Now UK, could you please man up, invoke article 50, and fuck off from our union?
Thank you.

Lets not kid out self's they understand more what the Eu is then the brain dead idiots in the remain camp that cant for the life of them come up with a coherent sentence of what the EU is and why leaving it might be bad when interviewed by the news.

 

[Doctor Axel]

Lets not kid out self's they understand more what the Eu is then the brain dead idiots in the remain camp that cant for the life of them come up with a coherent sentence of what the EU is and why leaving it might be bad when interviewed by the news.

The average pleb is ignorant or has a very basic knowledge of how a modern economy works, and it was very unwise and wreckless to let the plebs have a say in such a an important matter that they know so little about.

Sometimes people are too stupid to know whats good for them, and this is one of those cases.
Look at the EU-Canada trade negotiations; its 7 years in the making and still not close to finish.
It would take Britain decades to renegotiate trade deals with over 80 countries, and you can bet your ass that they wont get the same sweet deal as when they were an EU member....i highly doubt that Alan from Sussex who voted brexit knows about that.

Quitting the EU wont get them rid of the muslim immigrants and it can potentially fuck them economically big time...and on top of that, when UK will no longer be an EU member, France will feel less motivated to keep the immigrants on their side of border at Calais.