Borderline legal Judo subs

[_Glorfindel_]

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. There has never, ever been anyone penalized in international judo, let alone Olympic or world championship judo, for doing any kind of ude garami - including kimura or omaplata (and yes, both have been done and attempted even in the Olympics). Not a single time. Think about what that means about how the rule is interpreted.

If the elbow is immobilized that's all that matters under IJF rules, and that's the only way its called in national, international, and world/Olympic level judo.

Local rules you might be right, but you can also be disqualified for doing drop seoi-nage with both knees in local rules, or even for taking a non-standard grip (I've seen this in some local tournaments). Local rules are just that, they're not the standard.

Look, in Canada the national team (the current coach Nick Gill, long time members like Keith Morgan, ex-Olympians both as competitors and coaches like Ewan Beaton) teach turnovers and submissions based on cranking the shoulder with the elbow locked, and emphasize that the elbow must be immobilized. They teach these in seminars to young judoka across the country. Do you believe they would do so if it were illegal?

Look, answer my question. is it true that in americana/kimura, you can put pressure on the shoulder and/or elbow joint??

If you do grappling, you will answer : yes

So from there, if the ref 'think' (he may be wrong or right) that you put pressure on shoulder, you will get a dq most of the time.

I agree with you that usually, international ref know their things (if you listen to CK, they are not most of the time, but it's another story lol!

Like i said, this have been asked to death in judo forum, so i suggest everybody to go read some posts about what's legal or not in judo.

I will do it myself to clarify some things ;-)

Have a good day

 

[georgejjr]

Look, answer my question. is it true that in americana/kimura, you can put pressure on the shoulder and/or elbow joint??

Definitely. It tends to lock the shoulder at most people ... and often irrespective of how its applied. The joint which catches will be the tightest joint, and on most people that's the shoulder.

You can also get some people (rotator cuff injuries for instance) to tap to kata-ha-jime because of shoulder pressure ... for them that kicks in much faster than the strangulation. But because kata-ha-jime is considered a strangulation in judo, its irrelevant if uke's shoulder caught first. You cannot have rules based on monitoring where uke is actually feeling the pain - injuries, physical limits and so on are much too complicated for that.

If you do grappling, you will answer : yes

So from there, if the ref 'think' (he may be wrong or right) that you put pressure on shoulder, you will get a dq most of the time.

I agree with you that usually, international ref know their things (if you listen to CK, they are not most of the time, but it's another story lol!

Like i said, this have been asked to death in judo forum, so i suggest everybody to go read some posts about what's legal or not in judo.

I will do it myself to clarify some things ;-)

Have a good day

Rather than go to the judo forum, which has people who are very knowledgeable (JudoSensei for instance is a real life 6th dan with an excellent book, CK is a hachidan) and some with very questionable knowledge, go to a good sized judo tournament (national level or higher) and speak with an internationally rated referee.

 

[ShindoNinja]

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. There has never, ever been anyone penalized in international judo, let alone Olympic or world championship judo, for doing any kind of ude garami - including kimura or omaplata (and yes, both have been done and attempted even in the Olympics). Not a single time. Think about what that means about how the rule is interpreted.

If the elbow is immobilized that's all that matters under IJF rules, and that's the only way its called in national, international, and world/Olympic level judo.

Local rules you might be right, but you can also be disqualified for doing drop seoi-nage with both knees in local rules, or even for taking a non-standard grip (I've seen this in some local tournaments). Local rules are just that, they're not the standard.

Look, in Canada the national team (the current coach Nick Gill, long time members like Keith Morgan, ex-Olympians both as competitors and coaches like Ewan Beaton) teach turnovers and submissions based on cranking the shoulder with the elbow locked, and emphasize that the elbow must be immobilized. They teach these in seminars to young judoka across the country. Do you believe they would do so if it were illegal?

I've trained with Ewan and he has a strong ground game. He is pushing Newaza int eh Saskatchewan and Canadian program. Last time he was at our dojo he taught locked elbow turnovers to Kimura, an inverted triangle turnover/submission, a butterfly hook turnover, bucket choke from guard - that's all I remember but it's clear that he wants to preserve Kano's Judo. Funny thing is I thought the class he was leading was going to be all throws, when we in fact did nothing but Newaza the whole class. I also got a chance to roll with him, he must weigh like 150 but I swear he felt like 225 when he had me in reverse kesa. I wanted to tap from the pressure.

 

[judogido]

Like I said, it is a grey area.

You can happily apply ude garami or sankaku garami (kimura or omoplata).

However it can be HOW you apply them. The arm is a complicated assembly and it is impossible to completely isolate one joint. There is always secondary pressure on another joint.

If an opponent taps - how does the referee know which joint was being extended more than the other? Simple answer is he doesn't - unless tori makes it very obvious.

For example - if tori twists the arm right behind uke's back, or is the arm is out far from the body then the referee MIGHT interpret this as being a "shoulder lock" or whatever.

But otherwise - these techniques are perfectly legitimate.

 

[DeLaSeoul87]

Take what I say with a grain of salt because 1) the competition rules constantly change 2) certain chokes/submissions are banned in competition based on what belt level you are competing at...

But I seem to remember my sensei saying it was legal to pull on the back of the head in conjunction with the triangle, so long as you aren't CRANKING the head to deliberately attack the neck. If you have the triangle locked in properly, and you pull the back of the head in a SLOW and CONTROLLED manner, the referee shouldn't stop you - because it is the same idea of slowly tightening an armbar until your opponent taps. You are simply tightening the choke in the same manner.

People often forget that competition is based around technique - everything, the point system, the rules, are meant to encourage proper technique. The rules stress technique over strength, and ban certain things that are deemed to be dangerous technique, or inferior technique. I think this is what my sensei was trying to say... the rule should not punish a person who has successfully caught his opponent in a triangle... it should prevent him from using questionable and potentially dangerous technique in order to get a submission... but it should not prevent the proper, safe, and controlled use of technique directly related to a legal submission.

Sorry if the post is TLTR.


EDIT: Let me add that ultimately, it's up to the discretion of the referee. Unfortunately, because the rules leave a lot of grey area, and the rules constantly change, not even the Referee's agree on them... case in point, one of the best Judo Referee's in Michigan, Noburo Saito (former multiple- time Olympic referee) didn't know some of the answers to my questions... so, you might just get screwed by a questionable call.

 

[Auspex]

You probably got flamed for the "genius born syndrome" where everyone thinks that they simply reached nirvana and that they are going to revolutionize a MA.

As you can see everyone has a minor modification, its not a reason enough to revolutionize an MA that its practiced by millions for over a century. If you manage to revolutionize judo then become olympic coach or win competitions to show the world.

Absolutely...

I never have/never will claim that my sensei has revolutionized Judo, but I've practiced in many parts of the country and overseas and ahve never seen the techniques performed the way he does. Is this good or bad? Who knows, but my issue is still with the judoforum members that, instead of saying, "tell me more...", immediately begin the flame wars. And if I overstated the difference in technique then I apologize for being a bit overzealous, but timing and direction are the big factors, not any real "secrets". I do feel, however, that his differences have made all parties involved Judo much more effortless and fluid.

My sensei himself has gotten flamed as well, saying it's "not judo". His son has competed at a decently high level, winning gold at the Pan Ams and US Open in 2000. So, it's definitely Judo and it definitely works, but it's close to impossilbe to find others willing to check it out based on the semi-nontraditional route.

I'm certainly in no place like nirvana, I struggle just like everyone else, but am still having a great time and am continually encouraged to keep going.

 

[Rod1]

Absolutely...

I never have/never will claim that my sensei has revolutionized Judo, but I've practiced in many parts of the country and overseas and ahve never seen the techniques performed the way he does. Is this good or bad?

In kata? bad

In randori or shiai? whatever works for him is good.

Who knows, but my issue is still with the judoforum members that, instead of saying, "tell me more...", immediately begin the flame wars. And if I overstated the difference in technique then I apologize for being a bit overzealous, but timing and direction are the big factors, not any real "secrets". I do feel, however, that his differences have made all parties involved Judo much more effortless and fluid.

Try making a few videos explaining the changes and why.

They are certainly trolling, because you can have amazing coaches showing technique variations and nobody calls them for that, its called hypocresy and brownnosing.

Next time they blow you for it then show them sode guruma jime by Kashiwazaki, he doesn't shows perfect technique.

My sensei himself has gotten flamed as well, saying it's "not judo". His son has competed at a decently high level, winning gold at the Pan Ams and US Open in 2000. So, it's definitely Judo and it definitely works, but it's close to impossilbe to find others willing to check it out based on the semi-nontraditional route.

Judo its not a set of moves written in stone.

I'm certainly in no place like nirvana, I struggle just like everyone else, but am still having a great time and am continually encouraged to keep going

Keep training, keep improving, that's judo.

 

[_Glorfindel_]

In kata? bad

In randori or shiai? whatever works for him is good.



Try making a few videos explaining the changes and why.

They are certainly trolling, because you can have amazing coaches showing technique variations and nobody calls them for that, its called hypocresy and brownnosing.

Next time they blow you for it then show them sode guruma jime by Kashiwazaki, he doesn't shows perfect technique.




Judo its not a set of moves written in stone.



Keep training, keep improving, that's judo.

I think you have no idea of the level of the guys who are posting on JudoForum.

Maybe our friend can direct us to the thread he's talking about??

 

[Auspex]

In kata? bad

In randori or shiai? whatever works for him is good.

Try making a few videos explaining the changes and why.

They are certainly trolling, because you can have amazing coaches showing technique variations and nobody calls them for that, its called hypocresy and brownnosing.

Next time they blow you for it then show them sode guruma jime by Kashiwazaki, he doesn't shows perfect technique.

Judo its not a set of moves written in stone.

Keep training, keep improving, that's judo.

Agreed on all points.

A small set of vids certainly would help my argument

 

[Rod1]

I think you have no idea of the level of the guys who are posting on JudoForum.

Maybe our friend can direct us to the thread he's talking about??

Sorry but im not the guy that's impressed by the Dan ranking, sure ill respect them and ill accept they know more technique than i do. But Judo its not about preserving old techniques, neither its about winning competitions.

Why are you going to bash someone who has done a variation that its winning matches? that's the idiocy that plagues Judo. A quick look at the 2010 rules just shows how derailed the IJF is from judo.

 

[_Glorfindel_]

Sorry but im not the guy that's impressed by the Dan ranking, sure ill respect them and ill accept they know more technique than i do. But Judo its not about preserving old techniques, neither its about winning competitions.

Why are you going to bash someone who has done a variation that its winning matches? that's the idiocy that plagues Judo. A quick look at the 2010 rules just shows how derailed the IJF is from judo.

Sorry, but you didnt get my point at all. You are commenting something that you didnt even read.

So, i suggest Auspex to point us on the VERY thread where he FEEL that he was 'bashed'

I'm pretty, pretty curious.

So, before making any blind statement like you did, you better read the thread in question arent you??

So i'm waiting a link to the thread.

 

[Auspex]

i'm not gonna continue this by going through my history and pointing out every time someone got "bashed" on judoforum.

As a guy that particapates in both gi and nogi as well as Judo and BJJ tournaments, I have a lot of different approaches to my game. The Judoforum is a place, imo, that's best left to those training solely in traditional gi Judo. Great place for info.

 

[_Glorfindel_]

i'm not gonna continue this by going through my history and pointing out every time someone got "bashed" on judoforum.

As a guy that particapates in both gi and nogi as well as Judo and BJJ tournaments, I have a lot of different approaches to my game. The Judoforum is a place, imo, that's best left to those training solely in traditional gi Judo. Great place for info.

Traditional judo?? What's that? Kodokan Judo is kodokan judo...

Dont forget that Judo is a martial way, not a martial art.

Maybe you should say: There is 'sport judo' and kodokan Judo. I think this is a better way to say it

Anyway, since you dont want to provide a link...

 

[Auspex]

Traditional judo?? What's that? Kodokan Judo is kodokan judo...

Dont forget that Judo is a martial way, not a martial art.

Maybe you should say: There is 'sport judo' and kodokan Judo. I think this is a better way to say it

Anyway, since you dont want to provide a link...

Holy shit dude, you are exactly the reason I got the eff away from that forum.

There are plenty, I would even say the majority, of Judoka that think that practicing Judo without a gi isn't really Judo at all. Hell, there are some that think you shouldn't even be able to practice in a non-white gi. With that mindset, I meant to differentiate between gi judo and nogi judo, as tradtional and non-traditional. I think you knew exactly what I meant, but instead you feel it necessary to be argumentative to enforce how cool and knowledgeable you are.

And to feel like I should have to provide links about Judoforum.com "bashing". Have you EVER been there?? Every time a newb asks a question about a technique he's bound to get pounced on.

 

[fourfif**]

Holy shit dude, you are exactly the reason I got the eff away from that forum.

There are plenty, I would even say the majority, of Judoka that think that practicing Judo without a gi isn't really Judo at all. Hell, there are some that think you shouldn't even be able to practice in a non-white gi. With that mindset, I meant to differentiate between gi judo and nogi judo, as tradtional and non-traditional. I think you knew exactly what I meant, but instead you feel it necessary to be argumentative to enforce how cool and knowledgeable you are.

And to feel like I should have to provide links about Judoforum.com "bashing". Have you EVER been there?? Every time a newb asks a question about a technique he's bound to get pounced on.

nicely done and pwnt.

 

[judogido]

There's things I don't like about JudoForum and things I like about it.

The things I don't like are that people get a bit "religious" or "cult-ish" about judo. You get the impression they kneel and chant Kano's name in a low monotone and like to believe they "understand" judo and what it represents.

Then they get into a long-winded debate with someone who asks about "no-gi judo" or "judo techniques in MMA" - because judo is a "way of life" and an "educational system" and you are not practicing "judo" if you are not wearing a white suit and embracing judo as a "whole" with all aspects that Kano intended ..... ugh. Nit-f#cking-picking.

But there are a bunch of teenie, UFC-loving, BJJ-nuthugging boneheads on Sherdog who post a bunch of crap too - so no forum is prefect.

JudoForum has plenty of good, educational, intelligent threads. I'd say the average poster age is somewhat higher than here and it is more actively moderated.

Like with any forum, you learn to skim past or avoid those threads you KNOW are going to be sh*t. For example on Sherdog this week: another "Ari Bolden" bashing thread..... I'm not ever clicking on it.

 

[Darkslide632]

Sorry, but as much as I hate to say it, I gotta agree with Glorfindel, here.

What I find particularly interesting is how vehemently people attack those of us who promote and try to preserve Judo as it was originally conceived... only to turn around and condemn Eddie Bravo for his thoughts on "classic" BJJ.

Johari window, anyone?

The more BJJ grows, the more Eddie Bravos will pop up, and the more people will split off, until people who practice BJJ are in the same situation. It's ALREADY happening, but people are blind to it. Look at the 50/50 debate. Some people love it, and some people find the way it plays out in competition to be utter bullshit. No different than what has happened to Judo.

Wake up, fellas...

 

[georgejjr]

Sorry, but as much as I hate to say it, I gotta agree with Glorfindel, here.

What I find particularly interesting is how vehemently people attack those of us who promote and try to preserve Judo as it was originally conceived... only to turn around and condemn Eddie Bravo for his thoughts on "classic" BJJ.

Johari window, anyone?

The more BJJ grows, the more Eddie Bravos will pop up, and the more people will split off, until people who practice BJJ are in the same situation. It's ALREADY happening, but people are blind to it. Look at the 50/50 debate. Some people love it, and some people find the way it plays out in competition to be utter bullshit. No different than what has happened to Judo.

Wake up, fellas...

Yup. And the saddest part for judo is that one of the worst groups for changing judo from what it originally was is the IJF

Nothing wrong with coming up with new things - making rugby out of soccer, and football out of rugby. But change the name.

 

[YeahBee]

edit: fvck it I have said it before

lame that people feel the need to institute rules to promote their style. TKDing judo IMO

 

[_Glorfindel_]

Holy shit dude, you are exactly the reason I got the eff away from that forum.

There are plenty, I would even say the majority, of Judoka that think that practicing Judo without a gi isn't really Judo at all. Hell, there are some that think you shouldn't even be able to practice in a non-white gi. With that mindset, I meant to differentiate between gi judo and nogi judo, as tradtional and non-traditional. I think you knew exactly what I meant, but instead you feel it necessary to be argumentative to enforce how cool and knowledgeable you are.

And to feel like I should have to provide links about Judoforum.com "bashing". Have you EVER been there?? Every time a newb asks a question about a technique he's bound to get pounced on.

Sorry, english is not my natural language and i think you miss my point again. it's not your fault, it's mine, i cant express myself like i would like too.

So, I post regulary on judo forum, and i was actualy giving you my 'personal trick' when i post on judo forum.

There is a big difference between Judo and 'sport-judo' and just telling this in your post on judo forum will give you some 'slack' from the kind of 'pontifical judo dude' on judo forum.

And yes judo is a martial way and an educational system, and yes, if you dont wear a gi, you are not doing Judo by DEFINITION.

So what?? Just tell that you use your judo throw in no-gi grappling. I didnt see that as an offence are you??

Same thing about the white gi. It doesnt make you a bad judoka if you wear a blue gi, but the tradition, in kodokan judo is to wear a white gi 'cause it make everybody on the same 'level', everyone in white!! ;-)

It's like wearing white short and tshirt at the Wimbledon tournament (tennis), it's a tradition...

I had some 'strong arguments' with CK and Hannon sensei about gi color, traditions ect, and at the end i can understand their points, but they are people with 40-50 years of judo experience, so we have both to understand that we are not at the same point on our 'judo road'. We can learn a thing or two from those 'old chaps' but sure, you have to put some things in perspective.

Sorry if i insulted you in any way, that was not my goal.