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Borderline legal Judo subs

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by RJ Green, Sep 24, 2010.

  1. RJ Green

    RJ Green Black Belt

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    So, in this thread, I was hoping for a discussion on 'iffy' submissions that some uninformed Judo players might consider to be illegal.

    Now, that 'endanger the neck' rule is so poorly worded that its application is almost arbitrary. For the purposes of this thread, we'll say 'endanger' means 'crank'.

    So, with that in mind, are the following actually illegal?

    1. Pulling the head during a triangle
    (I say no, the only nationally-accredited ref I know says no, and that's because it's a supported choke)

    2. Any of the arm-in guillotines

    3. Peruvian Necktie and all variations

    4. Guillotine with the RNC grip (hand under the neck grabs the bicep of the arm on top)

    5. Guillotine with no neck twist

    Also, I'd like to espouse a personal and highly uninformed sentiment on flying armbars in Judo comps: they aren't illegal. Article 16, section D.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. blindgod

    blindgod Blue Belt

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    I've been told by some Judo people that omoplata is completely legal.

    I've been told by other Judo people that omoplata is completely illegal.

    Does that count?
     
  3. Auspex

    Auspex Brown Belt

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    I think you nailed it that there is some ambiguity in the terms for submissions. My instructor, who has been involved in Judo around the world for 35+ years, usually shrugs off any of my questions about legality. He seems to think that there's no reason for the technique to be illegal unless the crank is deliberate and obvious.

    That being said, here's what I have been told/remember (some not so helpful)

    1. "Why are you pulling the head? If you feel like you need to pull the head you're not doing it right"

    2. Just realized I have no valuable input, I haven't tried have these techniques in Judo. :)
     
  4. Auspex

    Auspex Brown Belt

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    To sorta add: Any neck crank is illegal. Therefore if the ref "thinks" you're cranking the neck, you'll be warned or DQ'd.

    For example, If I'm busting out a Peruvian on someone and a pull hard to make my back parellel with the mat, that might/would be considered a crank.

    anyway...
     
  5. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    A lot of this is pure speculation.

    1. I had always heard that the triangle was illegal too if you pulled the head down. I never won a match with a triangle so I never found out. I'll try to contact a ref I know to confirm or deny. I've never actually had a ref tell me it's illegal, but I assumed it was.

    2. I would think most Guillotines would be viewed as a neck crank, besides the figure-4/Mata Leao guillotine.

    3. Peruvian Necktie, Darce, Anaconda, and arm triangle variations? I think they all would be allowed as they clearly look like a variation of kata gatame, but I could see there being a problem with the Peruvian necktie as an untrained eye might not see that it's a head-and-arm choke right away.

    4. I would think this is legal.

    5. I think as with the arm-in guillotine that you might get a 50/50 split. Some refs might call it illegal, some might be fine?

    Flying Armlock: You're absolutely right. It is illegal if it isn't used as a "skillful entry into newaza" so as long as you don't start applying the lock before your body hits the mat you should be fine.

    I'm gonna ask my friend that's a ref these questions. Interesting thread. Thanks!
     
  6. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    That first comment is SO COMMON in real life too. I have had a lot of Judo people tell me that if you have to manipulate the head, you aren't doing the triangle right. I think it might be good to note to anyone reading this thread that has never done Judo: The most common triangle in Judo would be an inverted triangle in BJJ. You don't really run into that many triangles off the back in Judo. It's pretty rare. My ex tapped two black belts at a real solid Judo club off her back with the triangle as a blue belt. There were a few students that said they had never practiced that one before.
     
  7. _Glorfindel_

    _Glorfindel_ MMA Coach

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    1- You cannot touch the head with your hand in Judo. Pretty simple.

    2- If your choke put the head out of his natural line, it's not legal. It's OK as long as you don't hyperflex the neck. The problem is that some people tend to do that.

    I hope it answer all your questions
     
  8. RJ Green

    RJ Green Black Belt

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    dude, you can totally touch the head in judo, the only thing you can't do is crossface.
     
  9. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    This was my experience as well. It was also my experience that the neck can not be moved from side to side, forwards, or backwards. Again, I never found out because Juji-Gatame and Ude Garami were the only submissions I ever won a match with. I never won by pin either.
     
  10. Auspex

    Auspex Brown Belt

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    eh?
     
  11. shouldercharge

    shouldercharge Dave Camarillo idoliser

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    so can anyone confirm legality of the omoplata?
     
  12. newerest

    newerest Purple Belt

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    I've heard from judo guys that the omaplata and kimura can be used as ethier shoulder locks, elbow locks, or a combination. depending on the angle



    no idea on its legality though...

    source: judo forum
     
  13. Auspex

    Auspex Brown Belt

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    I use omoplata ALL the time in Judo and my sensei has never said a word about it's use.

    While that doesn't confirm anything, he's usually on my ass about incorrect techniques.\

    ----

    Kimura was a Judoka using the Ude Garami....it's DEFINITELY a vald technique.

    edit: Kimura = Ude Garami
     
  14. _Glorfindel_

    _Glorfindel_ MMA Coach

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    I will say it again.

    You can not touch the head/face with your hands in kodokan judo. That's why you cant put your hand behind the head to finish a triangle choke.
     
  15. masterfighter

    masterfighter Green Belt

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    Flying armbars are completly legal. If you apply it standing there is nothing wrong with that: standing submissions are allowed as long as you're not trying to throw at the same time. If you go to the ground it is skillfull entry into newaza.
    Arm in guillotines are all boarderline. Personally I would say theyre fine but I've spoken to other instructors who disagree. The impression ive recieved from qualified refs (including the very highest level) is that if its not clearly illegal, they will not stop it, and if the opponent taps no questions will be asked. So, I reckon it should be fine. Same goes for the rnc style guillotine.
    Kimura attacks both elbow and shoulder joints. Apparently there is an issue with an old mistranslation from the IJF rules (from japanese to english) resulting in some ambiguity about the legality of submissions which attack both shoulder and elbow joints. If it is deemed to be an attack on the shoulder rather than the elbow the referee should stop the match. The refs I have consulted on this matter seem to agree that if the arm is taken behind the back for the finish, they would stop the match and award hansakumake for an illegal technique. Otherwise it is fine. The same thinking applies to omoplatas. Its worth noting that in some countries omoplata-sweeps are frequently used as a turnover techniques to secure a holddown.
     
  16. masterfighter

    masterfighter Green Belt

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    I disagree, you cannot touch the face but you can touch the head. Many chokes taught in judo involve touching the back of the head.
     
  17. esl21

    esl21 Orange Belt

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    As usual in Judo, it is at the discretion of the referee. I got called last tournament after getting a Hadake-Jime (RNC). My opponent tapped, but the match was restarted due to the ref saying that it could have been a crank.

    He had a point through, I pulled the head up to get the other arm through.
     
  18. georgejjr

    georgejjr Black Belt

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    Completely legal. However, if you're competing in local tournaments, local rules may vary ... you'll also get things like drop seoi-nage being declared illegal locally. Nationally and internationally there's no debate, its legal.

    Actually the rule is that you can't touch the face, and you can't twist the head. You can definitely touch the head (look at variations of hadaka-jime or kata-ha-jime for instance, completely legal), and can even bend it along the forward/backwards axis, so long as there's no twist.

    So you can do the triangle (or sankaku-jime) pressing down on the head, so long as no twist is introduced. And in fact, Canto has used it that way in international competition without being called, as did Neil Adams back in the day.

    But the person asking the question is likely not competing nationally or internationally, so again be careful - local rules differ. I'd ask at the tournament to see how they're planning on calling it. Especially since most local referees are volunteers, getting paid nothing, and often pretty shaky on the rules - I wouldn't be hard on them, they're doing it because no one else will, and usually get nothing but abuse for their efforts.

    Arm in guillotines are legal so long as (again) the neck isn't twisted. Judo doesn't differentiate between rear naked chokes and guillotines (they're both hadaka jime), and both are legal so long as there isn't a neck twist. You don't even need the arm in so long as you're not using using your leg ... ie a guillotine without a twist is legal arm in or not, but a triangle needs the arm in (can't squeeze the head with your legs). The problem is that its pretty common to twist the neck in a guillotine, and that can get you disqualified.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2010
  19. newerest

    newerest Purple Belt

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    can't you just grip your hands together behind their hand and pull it down that way? you're not even touching the face/head with your fingers
     
  20. Kozbot

    Kozbot Purple Belt

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    judo rules are a joke
     

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