Borderline legal Judo subs

Not really, Judo isn't getting the watered down McDojo treatment like BJJ and MMA is currently getting right now. It's like Karate in the 80's (but thanks to Machida I can brag about my Karate purple belt) all over again and that's too bad.

I can't disagree with that.
 
Not really, Judo isn't getting the watered down McDojo treatment like BJJ and MMA is currently getting right now. It's like Karate in the 80's (but thanks to Machida I can brag about my Karate purple belt) all over again and that's too bad.

That's pretty true actually. Some (me for instance :D) might argue that its getting the amputation treatment via the IJF, but because its mainly sport focused and that means result (within the rules of the sport) focused, its no more prone to being watered down than boxing, hockey, wrestling, or any other sport ...

Think Greco-Roman wrestling and you'll be pretty much on the mark. Greco has a very limited rule set, but the guys who do it are strong, tough, and very fit within those rules ... amputated but definitely not watered down.
 
The reason you "cant neck crank" in Judo, is because if you need to crank down it means that you can be lift, and when you are lift, even if its only an inch, it will be matte and start over.

Here is Kashiwazaki applying textbook mae sankaku jime (front triangle strangle)

YouTube - Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki-Sankaku Jime

When done this way, also, you won't need monster flexibility, anyone can do it like Kashiwazaki is showing. The downside is that, this way is also more telegraphed, when done BJJ style with great flexibility, you don't even need to move uke, and therefore uke wont "feel" the threat from propioception.

Anyway, that's pretty much the difference, basically in shiai judo, you are stopped when lifted, so you need to break uke's posture to prevent that, instead of curling into uke like you can do in BJJ.
 
you don't NEED to pull the head during a triangle if you're doing it right, but it speeds up the tap...
 

+3,000,000

I pray one day that Judo gets dropped by the Olympics to cut down on the BS rule changes. That or "Kano JJ" (the original Judo) makes a comeback.
 
Unfortuately a lot of rules are open to referee interpretation. Also during competition you could take 2 kimuras/ude-garame's and one is legal - the other not - simply because of the way it is applied. So - you can see how there is confusion.

Take the "pulling down on the head" in a triangle part. There is nowhere in the rules something that makes this action illegal. It is not covered by the "no contact on the face" rule, nor is it covered by "action endangering the neck" rule - because as we all know - it is simply closing/tightening the gap.

However, here's where ignorance and referee interpretation comes into play.

A referee will look at this and see someone pulling down on the head and get all worried because s/he is not sure what they are seeing. Yanking on the head ??? - uuuh ... uuuh - "matte!". (followed by a brief pow-wow with the corner judges)

So... a smart competitor knows these little idiosincracies and rather than getting into a "technical" argument with a bunch of refs (....... who (sorry in advance) are often those who don't/can't/tried-but-sucked themselves in competition (with many exceptions - most surely)...... ) will simply make a few small modifications to the technique. A shift of the hips or reaching up and grap your own shin/ankle and use your forearm to put pressure on the head .. hey, presto - all of a sudden it doesn't look so "scary" and it is legal.

Omoplata? Legal. Flying armbar? Legal. Standing strangle? Legal. RNC? Legal. Guillotine? Legal. IF you get ref who interprets the rules correctly and IF the technique is performed correctly (ie; a guillotine should not stretch or crank the neck - only squeeze it).

Lets just call a lot of this "grey area". You can minimise the "risk" of penalty though awareness of the actual rules and how to "avoid" common referee interpretations.
 
I am a big fan of the armdrag and usually use it to take the back standing. I have a few questions about the legality of this in Judo competition:

1. What rules are there regarding to taking the back standing in Judo?
2. Can you drag them down from the back standing and start newaza?
3. Can you go for the Rear Naked Choke/Hadaka-Jime while taking the back standing?
 
I am a big fan of the armdrag and usually use it to take the back standing. I have a few questions about the legality of this in Judo competition:

1. What rules are there regarding to taking the back standing in Judo?
2. Can you drag them down from the back standing and start newaza?
3. Can you go for the Rear Naked Choke/Hadaka-Jime while taking the back standing?

1. Ill-advised, seeing as you're in a throwing contest.
2. If you do something slick like a Tani Otoshi.
3. Yes, as long as you proceed directly into groundwork. You can't, however, start a choke from standing if they're on their knees. My last tournament, I attempted a footsweep and caused my opponent to kneel. I locked in a tight kataha jime, but was promptly stood up. Lame.
 
All techniques mentioned in the opening post are legal and any referee telling you otherwise is full of crap. To be honest I didn't bother to read what has been posted earlier because I bet you people are just making simple things unnecessarily complicated.

They are legal - that is all.

Edit. I decided to browse through the thread anyway and found "glorfindel" saying that omoplata is illegal which is complete bullshit.
 
1. Ill-advised, seeing as you're in a throwing contest.
2. If you do something slick like a Tani Otoshi.
3. Yes, as long as you proceed directly into groundwork. You can't, however, start a choke from standing if they're on their knees. My last tournament, I attempted a footsweep and caused my opponent to kneel. I locked in a tight kataha jime, but was promptly stood up. Lame.

Again, you don't NEED to transition to groundwork, but the effect of the submission must be immediate.

Article 17, section H of the IJF Referee Rules states:

"The Referee shall announce Mate in order to stop the contest temporarily in the following cases...

  • When a contestant performs or attempts to perform Kansetsu-waza or Shime-waza from the standing position and the result is not sufficiently apparent."

You CAN apply submissions while standing, but they need to have an immediate effect.

In response to SentinelSix:

You're perfectly welcome to try and take the back while standing in Judo. I would suggest, however, that you execute whatever it is that you're planning quickly. 1) Because you'll be penalized for not attacking while maintaining a non-basic grip, and 2) because you'll be about 2 seconds away from your opponent throwing soto makikomi if they have any kind of grip on your arm/sleeve. Generally speaking, you don't see people "taking the back" while doing tachi waza.

You're going to get penalized if you attempt to drag your opponent to the ground in any kind of obvious manner, be it from the front or back. You could, as RJ said, do something like a tani otoshi, however.
 
All techniques mentioned in the opening post are legal and any referee telling you otherwise is full of crap. To be honest I didn't bother to read what has been posted earlier because I bet you people are just making simple things unnecessarily complicated.

They are legal - that is all.

Edit. I decided to browse through the thread anyway and found "glorfindel" saying that omoplata is illegal which is complete bullshit.

I am sorry but, when you do ude garami type of sub, like americana/kimura, you can put pressure on the elbow OR shoulder, depend how you adjust your sub.

So if the ref look at it and THINK you are putting pressure on the shoulder by the way you do your ude garami, you will get a dq, sorry if you dont like that,
You can blame the 'bad' ref, me, your mother, that will not change anything, you will get dq.
 
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Cichorei Kano. I believe he is a doctor.

As far as the negative feedback about the Judoforum being close-minded - It is, to a point. And there is a reason I don't post there anymore, mostly having to do with a prominent poster and his complete lack of respect for anyone who doesn't do things his way, even in instances where those doing the instructing out-rank him.

That being said, there is a significant amount of concern about the preservation of Judo as it was developed by Jigoro Kano. Part of the close-minded nature that people experience over there is due to the fact that in many instances, Judo is not being passed on in the classical form, and there is a real concern that Judo - as it was developed by Jigoro Kano - could eventually disappear entirely.

Sound extreme? Maybe, but consider the massive changes that have taken place in just the past 50 years. Judo is not an ancient art, and yet it has undergone such drastic changes, that in some schools the training that takes place is hardly recognizable as Judo. The lack of ne-waza in most schools alone is astonishing.

Now, I am sure that the initial response to this will be that it SHOULD evolve with the times, and this is where we reach a very touchy subject. For some people, Judo is a sport, first and foremost. For other, Judo is much more than that, and the competitive aspect is more about testing abilities and less about winning for the sake of winning. And this is the catalyst for the biggest of debates.

For some people, the idea that Judo is anything more than a sport, and that the goal of Judo is anything but to win, is difficult to accept. I would say that this is true for many competitive activities. I might reference the movie "Searching for Bobby Fischer" as an example, albeit one that is related to chess.

On the other side of the fence, you have people who strive to obtain the ideals of Judo as described by Jigoro Kano, even at the expense of winning. The idea of winning a Judo match in a manner that is not inline with the concept of seiryoku zenyo (maximum efficiency through minimum effort) seems pointless, at best, and destructive at worst.

I would say that I fall much more into the latter group than I do in the former, but obviously not so far that I can resolve my differences with those on the Judoforum who are firmly entrenched there.

What's interesting to note, is that despite the fact that BJJ is a good deal younger than Judo, it is experiencing the same difficulties, but at a seemingly accelerated rate. I think we're all aware of of the BJJ policing that takes place, and there was just a thread the other day about the "McDojo Effect" and the inevitable, in my opinion, effect it will have on BJJ.

Why is that? Well, some people might say that it's all about putting in the time and effort and that it's not ok for people to claim ranks they don't have, etc. Which is true. But what if they are completely capable of teaching in a manner in-line with the fundamental concepts behind BJJ, and at an appropriate technical level? Some might still say no, but I might bring up the case of - and I hate to do this because I have a massive amount of respect for the man - Joe Moreira. A significant amount of debate has taken place over Moreira and his rank. Yes, I am aware that he has been promoted by valid instructors since this time, but there is still a gap that seems to be unaccounted for, Most people overlook this gap because he is obviously deserving of his current rank... which brings me back to my original point about someone having the knowledge and technical ability without formal promotions.

I think the real reason for this paranoia, is that people do not want to lose the root aspects of BJJ anymore than the Judoka you find on Judoforum want to lose the roots of Judo. Look at Eddie Bravo. Eddie is a talented and capable instructor who has spent years training with some amazing coaches, etc. But when he starts pushing the rubber guard and suggesting that no-gi is the best way to train BJJ, people balk. People who have trained BJJ for a much shorter amount of time, with ranks everywhere from white to black balk. Why? Because it's a threat. Because it goes against core ideals. No, the guys Eddie has been producing aren't the elite of the elite, but I really don't believe that this is the reason people balk so hard, especially people with a fraction of his skills and talents. If this way the case, I expect people would allow the result to speak for themselves.

And this is without even going into the whole BJJ from a self-defense perspective, vs. BJJ as a competitive sport. I think it's perfectly obvious that there are people on both sides of the fence who feel extremely strong about their stance. It's no different in Judo. Regardless of what it is they believe, you will always have the hardcore traditional people like Cichorei Kanos and the Ptnippons of the Judoforum, just like you'll always have the extremists like Eddie Bravo.


Yes, but they are RIGHT about JUDO. They dont give a dam about 'sport judo'.
 
I am sorry but, when you do ude garami type of sub, like americana/kimura, you can put pressure on the elbow OR shoulder, depend how you adjust your sub.

So if the ref look at it and THINK you are putting pressure on the shoulder by the way you do your ude garami, you will get a dq, sorry if you dont like that,
You can blame the 'bad' ref, me, your mother, that will not change anything, you will get dq.

This is a matter of principle, as varying as the quality of referees may be I refuse to take seriously any ref who'd dq a player for omoplata. I haven't been dq'd for attempting omoplata in competition (if I would I wouldn't give a shit because it'd be so ridiculous) and I go for it regurarily in national team practises along with many others and never once has a coach or a referee who's watching the practise told me not to do it. My advice to all judokas is to drill omoplata to boredom because it's just so useful of a move.
 
I think I may be in the strange middle ground then.

I'm all for perserving the origins of the Kodokan and I come from a school that frowns upon the modern competition styling and landscaping. We are tradiionalists in that matter, but are defintely progressive in others.

My sensei has spent a GREAT deal of time not only teaching Judo, but analyzing techniques and "modifying" them where he sees fit. To clarify, using the classical Judo maxim, maximum efficieny/minimal effort, and following the constraints that define a technique, he has found ways to slightly modify the way a technique is performed to make it smaller, faster, and more efficient.

I talked about this on Judoforum and was absolutely blown away by the negative reaction. haha, I was even told to burn my gi. I understand that what I was saying didn't exactly mold to traditional Judo, but for techniques built on the premise of simple physics, these "modifications", I feel, would be embraced by Kano.

Kano made it pretty clear what made him unhappy about the competition emphasis that he was seeing. What I didn't see, but expect, is that Kano would want his techniques to be improved upon if they followed all the correct criteria. I would think/hope that Judo practicioners would be the same, but...
 
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A couple of hours ago in newaza I pulled the head during a triangle and was told that it was illegal....

I think the underlying problem is not to know if moves a, b, c, etc. are legal or not.

The real problem is that we are asking ourselves these very questions to that extent.


About judoforum, I think many people there, including CK, are extremely knowledgeable (sp?). I have learned much reading what these guys write.

The only thing is that many of them see judo as much (if not more) as a philosophy as a sport. So there is often a clash with people who see it as just a sport.
 
Oh and my guess is that CK, to the extent that he does exist in real life, is a specialised doctor originally from continental Europe. I think he is French or Swiss or Belgian (he speaks French). And he had exposure to famous judokas from Japan and Europe, which does lead to some"French connection" :)

But this is all speculation. Maybe the guy is from San Diego ;)
 
I think I may be in the strange middle ground then.

I'm all for perserving the origins of the Kodokan and I come from a school that frowns upon the modern competition styling and landscaping. We are tradiionalists in that matter, but are defintely progressive in others.

My sensei has spent a GREAT deal of time not only teaching Judo, but analyzing techniques and "modifying" them where he sees fit. To clarify, using the classical Judo maxim, maximum efficieny/minimal effort, and following the constraints that define a technique, he has found ways to slightly modify the way a technique is performed to make it smaller, faster, and more efficient.

I talked about this on Judoforum and was absolutely blown away by the negative reaction. haha, I was even told to burn my gi. I understand that what I was saying didn't exactly mold to traditional Judo, but for techniques built on the premise of simple physics, these "modifications", I feel, would be embraced by Kano.

Kano made it pretty clear what made him unhappy about the competition emphasis that he was seeing. What I didn't see, but expect, is that Kano would want his techniques to be improved upon if they followed all the correct criteria. I would think/hope that Judo practicioners would be the same, but...

You probably got flamed for the "genius born syndrome" where everyone thinks that they simply reached nirvana and that they are going to revolutionize a MA.

EVERYONE modifies techniques, because everyone is different, what your sensei "modified" may serve him better than textbook move, but it may not work for you or for "joe".

Teaching the basics and guiding an student to find their "judo" is what a sensei is about, i have my own modified techniques, but they are mine, they work for me, they may not work for everyone.

For example

Osoto gari

Isao Okano

YouTube - Judo: Isao Okano O Soto Gari

Yasuhiro Yamashita

YouTube - YAMASHITA,O SOTO GARI.

Masahiko Kimura

YouTube - Kimura throws helio gracie

Assorted

YouTube - O-Soto-Gari Compilation (by Yukiore)

As you can see everyone has a minor modification, its not a reason enough to revolutionize an MA that its practiced by millions for over a century. If you manage to revolutionize judo then become olympic coach or win competitions to show the world.
 
I am sorry but, when you do ude garami type of sub, like americana/kimura, you can put pressure on the elbow OR shoulder, depend how you adjust your sub.

So if the ref look at it and THINK you are putting pressure on the shoulder by the way you do your ude garami, you will get a dq, sorry if you dont like that,
You can blame the 'bad' ref, me, your mother, that will not change anything, you will get dq.

I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. There has never, ever been anyone penalized in international judo, let alone Olympic or world championship judo, for doing any kind of ude garami - including kimura or omaplata (and yes, both have been done and attempted even in the Olympics). Not a single time. Think about what that means about how the rule is interpreted.

If the elbow is immobilized that's all that matters under IJF rules, and that's the only way its called in national, international, and world/Olympic level judo.

Local rules you might be right, but you can also be disqualified for doing drop seoi-nage with both knees in local rules, or even for taking a non-standard grip (I've seen this in some local tournaments). Local rules are just that, they're not the standard.

Look, in Canada the national team (the current coach Nick Gill, long time members like Keith Morgan, ex-Olympians both as competitors and coaches like Ewan Beaton) teach turnovers and submissions based on cranking the shoulder with the elbow locked, and emphasize that the elbow must be immobilized. They teach these in seminars to young judoka across the country. Do you believe they would do so if it were illegal?
 
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