wildman1717
Green Belt
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2007
- Messages
- 1,252
- Reaction score
- 0
Omaplata is legal.
-
Xenforo Cloud is upgrading us to version 2.3.8 on Monday February 16th, 2026 at 12:00 AM PST. Expect a temporary downtime during this process. More info here
Borderline legal Judo subs
- Thread starter RJ Green
- Start date
Its become a very specialized sport, not unlike Greco-Roman wrestling. And a lot of older judo people are very unhappy about it. Getting into the Olympics (in case no one has pointed this out before
) was the worst thing that ever happened to judo. Its been bad for wrestling too, and for boxing.And probably for most other sports as far as that goes. The IOC changes everything to their own taste ... and the IOC taste is almost purely financial in nature.
- Joined
- May 25, 2003
- Messages
- 6,853
- Reaction score
- 0
its become a very specialized sport, not unlike greco-roman wrestling. And a lot of older judo people are very unhappy about it. Getting into the olympics (in case no one has pointed this out before
And probably for most other sports as far as that goes. The ioc changes everything to their own taste ... And the ioc taste is almost purely financial in nature.
+1!
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 5,984
- Reaction score
- 429
...+2
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 5,984
- Reaction score
- 429
bullshit.
Under "Shido" in the IJF rulebook:
(17) To put a hand, arm, foot or leg directly on the opponent's face.
(17)
The face means the area within the line bordered by the forehead, the front of the ears and the jaw-line.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2008
- Messages
- 5,984
- Reaction score
- 429
no.
as for the triangle thing, pulling the head cuts off the oxygen. you can GET the sub from just the blood choke, but the pull knocks off a few seconds on lights-out.
I've been stood up after 5 seconds of choking in a judo competition. it's ridiculous.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2008
- Messages
- 2,061
- Reaction score
- 0
wrong
_Glorfindel_
MMA Coach
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2007
- Messages
- 1,136
- Reaction score
- 0
Ok guys, i will try to clarify my point.
In theory, you can put your hand behind the head. But 90% of the time, the ref will see it as an 'added' crank to the sub and will stop you. So do what you want, but dont be surprised if you got a DQ
For the omoplata, in judo you cant attack the shoulder joint, your sub should be directed to the elbow joint. So you better use it as a sweep. Same thing about ude garami (americana/kimura), you have to put pressure on the elbow, not the shoulder.
Another thing, when we say ' in judo' in fact we should say ' in judo shiai' i.e. competition, 'cause in fact, you have about everything in judo sub wize, even leg locks (there is about 10 legs lock in judo).
When you have question about Judo, go on Judofoum.com
In theory, you can put your hand behind the head. But 90% of the time, the ref will see it as an 'added' crank to the sub and will stop you. So do what you want, but dont be surprised if you got a DQ
For the omoplata, in judo you cant attack the shoulder joint, your sub should be directed to the elbow joint. So you better use it as a sweep. Same thing about ude garami (americana/kimura), you have to put pressure on the elbow, not the shoulder.
Another thing, when we say ' in judo' in fact we should say ' in judo shiai' i.e. competition, 'cause in fact, you have about everything in judo sub wize, even leg locks (there is about 10 legs lock in judo).
When you have question about Judo, go on Judofoum.com
This is correct in local tournaments. In national and international tournaments its not true - though good luck getting a referee who will leave you on the ground long enough to actually get the triangle :icon_cry2
Actually all the ude-garami (which is what an omoplata is) has to do is immobilize the elbow joint for it to be considered an elbow lock. If uke's shoulder happens to feel the pain first then that's as much uke's problem with ude-garami as it is with say juji gatame (someone with a very bad shoulder might feel the pain at the shoulder there first - judo rules don't care, because the elbow is what is immobilized).
So omoplata, the kimura, the americana (all called ude-garami in judo) are completely legal, and you'll never see it called otherwise in higher level competition. Local competition on the other hand you might be called for it. You might also be called for double knee drop seoi-nage (illegal in some local tournaments), and a lot of other IJF legal-local variable techniques. For local tournaments, ask for the local rules before competing.
Well, 90% of judo clubs only practice techniques which are allowed in shiai, and most judoka couldn't do a leg lock in randori to save their lives. I wish this wasn't true, but it is. Judo also has atemi-waza (striking) in theory, but I'm not exactly going to suggest that means judoka are ready to go toe to toe with the Klitschko's. Kano's emphasized the point was that if you don't use a technique in randori, you will not become proficient in it ... and that is the case for most non-shiai legal techniques. Even throws like kani-basami, which were legal until a couple of decades ago, aren't done properly now (if at all) by most newer judoka.
And yes, judoforum.com is a great site.
_Glorfindel_
MMA Coach
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2007
- Messages
- 1,136
- Reaction score
- 0
Thx for the reply. All the infos i provided came from judoforum, i will not discuss more about omoplata, kimura/americana, just go on judoforum and make a search on those topics. You can read posts on those subjects by international ref and judoka, feel free to arg with them ;-)
Have a good day.
I suggest you do a search on posts on the topic by Cichorea_Kano (who I can assure you is an internationally rated referee in real life, and quite a high one); you'll find he will say the same as I do about immobilizing the elbow. As will any IJF rated referee.
There's a reason kimura's, americana's, and yes, even omoplata's, have been used in Olympic judo to gain the ippon. If what you said were true, all of those would be illegal in shiai, when in fact in international judo none of them are - and that isn't a matter of opinion, its a simple fact. Find some of Canto's matches, you'll note he's used all of them successfully.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2008
- Messages
- 1,471
- Reaction score
- 0
This may not be judo related, but I don't like ppl pulling head WAY down in triangles in BJJ. The way I do it is if their head is high, I will pull it down to where the triangle works and then I switch to hugging the knee like Aoki. (Then again, I'm good at triangles and most of the time don't even use my hands at all-if I'm in a good position it takes half a second to go from guard to triangle fully locked)
I've had a neck injury from a crappy guillotine in a tournament where the way stronger opp. kept pulling and cranking my neck instead of choking me for 3 mins. Now every time I'm caught in triangle and someone pulls on my neck, I get a mini-sprain and can't grapple for a couple of days.
I've had a neck injury from a crappy guillotine in a tournament where the way stronger opp. kept pulling and cranking my neck instead of choking me for 3 mins. Now every time I'm caught in triangle and someone pulls on my neck, I get a mini-sprain and can't grapple for a couple of days.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2005
- Messages
- 2,565
- Reaction score
- 0
In reference to flying arm bars: They do NOT need to lead to groundwork for them to count. However, as with a technique such as hara gatame or waki gatame, there has to be an immediate effect - ie: your opponent must be tapping.
If, for example, you were to attempt a flying arm bar on an opponent and they were to somehow stay standing while you were dangling off them, the ref should call matte if there is not an immediate submission. The ref may also consider applying hansoku-make if you put yourself in danger while applying the arm bar. An example:
[YT]uZc8phahor0[/YT]
I'm reasonably confident that hansoku-make was given due to the risk that tori put himself at by landing on his upper back/neck. I believe THIS is the reason that you often see flying arm bars that are not immediately effective awarded hansoku-make. Not because the technique itself is illegal, but because tori's head is likely to land first if uke remains standing, and it may be considered a "head dive" so to speak.
Pulling on the head during a triangle should not be illegal, though I have certainly seen it called as such. I suggest grabbing the shin, instead, and staying away from your opponent's head.
Arm in guillotines I think you'd be likely to have called as a neck crank. The only variation I use in contest is straight across the neck, with the back of uke's head on my chest/stomach.
I think you'll find that you're likely to be called for applying a Peruvian Necktie, but there's no reason to be called for a Darce, Anaconda, etc. In theory, the Peruvian necktie shouldn't be illegal. It uses the same premise as any other sankaku jime variation. The problem is that your leg ends up across the back of uke's neck, and in the process of uke trying to escape, it can creep high up on the head, causing a significant flex. Despite the fact that the flex is not what causes the choke to work, I think it's likely to be called... which is too bad, as it is one of my favorite techniques. The interesting part about this, is that I think any danger to uke's neck is more likely to be caused by uke than by tori (unless tori is inexperienced).
If, for example, you were to attempt a flying arm bar on an opponent and they were to somehow stay standing while you were dangling off them, the ref should call matte if there is not an immediate submission. The ref may also consider applying hansoku-make if you put yourself in danger while applying the arm bar. An example:
[YT]uZc8phahor0[/YT]
I'm reasonably confident that hansoku-make was given due to the risk that tori put himself at by landing on his upper back/neck. I believe THIS is the reason that you often see flying arm bars that are not immediately effective awarded hansoku-make. Not because the technique itself is illegal, but because tori's head is likely to land first if uke remains standing, and it may be considered a "head dive" so to speak.
Pulling on the head during a triangle should not be illegal, though I have certainly seen it called as such. I suggest grabbing the shin, instead, and staying away from your opponent's head.
Arm in guillotines I think you'd be likely to have called as a neck crank. The only variation I use in contest is straight across the neck, with the back of uke's head on my chest/stomach.
I think you'll find that you're likely to be called for applying a Peruvian Necktie, but there's no reason to be called for a Darce, Anaconda, etc. In theory, the Peruvian necktie shouldn't be illegal. It uses the same premise as any other sankaku jime variation. The problem is that your leg ends up across the back of uke's neck, and in the process of uke trying to escape, it can creep high up on the head, causing a significant flex. Despite the fact that the flex is not what causes the choke to work, I think it's likely to be called... which is too bad, as it is one of my favorite techniques. The interesting part about this, is that I think any danger to uke's neck is more likely to be caused by uke than by tori (unless tori is inexperienced).
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2008
- Messages
- 2,675
- Reaction score
- 40
I disagree...
Probably the most closed minded and uptight members I've ever come across.
You can't bring in a new idea without getting completely flamed. I wish there was more constructive criticism and feedback, but it's mostly folks who have latched onto an idea and refuse to acknowledge anything different.
There are some good folks on there, but not enough to make it worth hanging around.
I think judoinfo.com (not a forum) is much better for reseach purposes...
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2008
- Messages
- 2,675
- Reaction score
- 40
edited for unnecessary rant.
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2004
- Messages
- 4,564
- Reaction score
- 0
It tells you a lot, it's like here we are, nothing to hide, and here's a plethora of information. It's not like for $99.99 plus shipping we will teach you our super secret grappling system, and you get a free belt no charge, like SOME arts.
Drew Foster
Silver Belt
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 11,759
- Reaction score
- 1
Drew Foster
Silver Belt
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 11,759
- Reaction score
- 1
Yeah because there's certainly NO products to be sold in Judo....
Oh wait...
GripLikeAWorldChampion
Ugly Judo 101: Morote Gari
Drew Foster
Silver Belt
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 11,759
- Reaction score
- 1
Cichorea_Kano is kind of an odd dude, and I think he can be a jerk sometimes, but I can tell just by reading his stuff that he is brilliant. I don't know what he does in real life, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was a big-time surgeon or scientist. I wish I knew who he was in real life.
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2005
- Messages
- 2,565
- Reaction score
- 0
Cichorei Kano. I believe he is a doctor.
As far as the negative feedback about the Judoforum being close-minded - It is, to a point. And there is a reason I don't post there anymore, mostly having to do with a prominent poster and his complete lack of respect for anyone who doesn't do things his way, even in instances where those doing the instructing out-rank him.
That being said, there is a significant amount of concern about the preservation of Judo as it was developed by Jigoro Kano. Part of the close-minded nature that people experience over there is due to the fact that in many instances, Judo is not being passed on in the classical form, and there is a real concern that Judo - as it was developed by Jigoro Kano - could eventually disappear entirely.
Sound extreme? Maybe, but consider the massive changes that have taken place in just the past 50 years. Judo is not an ancient art, and yet it has undergone such drastic changes, that in some schools the training that takes place is hardly recognizable as Judo. The lack of ne-waza in most schools alone is astonishing.
Now, I am sure that the initial response to this will be that it SHOULD evolve with the times, and this is where we reach a very touchy subject. For some people, Judo is a sport, first and foremost. For other, Judo is much more than that, and the competitive aspect is more about testing abilities and less about winning for the sake of winning. And this is the catalyst for the biggest of debates.
For some people, the idea that Judo is anything more than a sport, and that the goal of Judo is anything but to win, is difficult to accept. I would say that this is true for many competitive activities. I might reference the movie "Searching for Bobby Fischer" as an example, albeit one that is related to chess.
On the other side of the fence, you have people who strive to obtain the ideals of Judo as described by Jigoro Kano, even at the expense of winning. The idea of winning a Judo match in a manner that is not inline with the concept of seiryoku zenyo (maximum efficiency through minimum effort) seems pointless, at best, and destructive at worst.
I would say that I fall much more into the latter group than I do in the former, but obviously not so far that I can resolve my differences with those on the Judoforum who are firmly entrenched there.
What's interesting to note, is that despite the fact that BJJ is a good deal younger than Judo, it is experiencing the same difficulties, but at a seemingly accelerated rate. I think we're all aware of of the BJJ policing that takes place, and there was just a thread the other day about the "McDojo Effect" and the inevitable, in my opinion, effect it will have on BJJ.
Why is that? Well, some people might say that it's all about putting in the time and effort and that it's not ok for people to claim ranks they don't have, etc. Which is true. But what if they are completely capable of teaching in a manner in-line with the fundamental concepts behind BJJ, and at an appropriate technical level? Some might still say no, but I might bring up the case of - and I hate to do this because I have a massive amount of respect for the man - Joe Moreira. A significant amount of debate has taken place over Moreira and his rank. Yes, I am aware that he has been promoted by valid instructors since this time, but there is still a gap that seems to be unaccounted for, Most people overlook this gap because he is obviously deserving of his current rank... which brings me back to my original point about someone having the knowledge and technical ability without formal promotions.
I think the real reason for this paranoia, is that people do not want to lose the root aspects of BJJ anymore than the Judoka you find on Judoforum want to lose the roots of Judo. Look at Eddie Bravo. Eddie is a talented and capable instructor who has spent years training with some amazing coaches, etc. But when he starts pushing the rubber guard and suggesting that no-gi is the best way to train BJJ, people balk. People who have trained BJJ for a much shorter amount of time, with ranks everywhere from white to black balk. Why? Because it's a threat. Because it goes against core ideals. No, the guys Eddie has been producing aren't the elite of the elite, but I really don't believe that this is the reason people balk so hard, especially people with a fraction of his skills and talents. If this way the case, I expect people would allow the result to speak for themselves.
And this is without even going into the whole BJJ from a self-defense perspective, vs. BJJ as a competitive sport. I think it's perfectly obvious that there are people on both sides of the fence who feel extremely strong about their stance. It's no different in Judo. Regardless of what it is they believe, you will always have the hardcore traditional people like Cichorei Kanos and the Ptnippons of the Judoforum, just like you'll always have the extremists like Eddie Bravo.
