BJJ lifestyle = watered down of BJJ?

Uchi , I would love you to come check out my school , I'm two stripe black under Relson . I have competed in pro mma as well as Thai in Thailand . I think you would have a great time training and you might have a different mindset on what we do. If you are in Denver , check out Steve Hordencki . Or Phil Cardella down south . We all teach sport . As well as mma and self defense . Unless you have trained with us you don't have a good picture of how things are . You would be welcomed as a friend .
 
Uchi Mata said:
His affiliates do it for him. If you want a good example of what I'm talking about listen to the Inside BJJ podcast episode with Josh Lauber, a long time Relson student. I have no doubt he's good at old school BJJ, but he's extremely traditionalist and very much promotes that mindset. It's very consistent with other Relson guys I've met, who tend to be very dismissive of modern BJJ but also not compete in what they're supposedly training for, which is more or less MMA.
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Relson is the definition of old school. I was at a seminar he did and he was saying how open guard is for pregnant women, lol! He thinks anything not self defense oriented is utter crap. I get his point, but obviously I don't feel as strongly about it as he does... being a big utilizer of butterfly guard and occasional spider...

But, his technique was sick. He's like 70 and just having him demonstrate a technique on you feels like being wrapped up by an orangutan.
 
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0ldmanstrength said:
According to everybody in the Gracie family that was there. (At least that I've heard from.) There are some epic Relson stories. Get Renzo talking about his big bro and you'll find out. :)

But the way you ask the question, automatic suspicion and even a bit of disrepect, is a good example of the "gracie hate." Its very "in" right now to diss them.
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Lol, my school has been "dissing" Gracies since before it was cool. And it's way more popular to love them for no reason than it is to hate them.

Do you train at a Relson affiliate?
 
Ice 9 Cobra said:
Lol, my school has been "dissing" Gracies since before it was cool. And it's way more popular to love them for no reason than it is to hate them.

Do you train at a Relson affiliate?
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no, but I have friends that do.

So you see it as counter-cultural to hate on the gracies. Interesting.
 
No, you're making assumptions. But continue on with your crusade.
 
0ldmanstrength said:
no, but I have friends that do.

So you see it as counter-cultural to hate on the gracies. Interesting.
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You must be new because it has been going for ages.

Even Medhi back in Brasil does not have very nice to say about them.
 
toney said:
Uchi , I would love you to come check out my school , I'm two stripe black under Relson . I have competed in pro mma as well as Thai in Thailand . I think you would have a great time training and you might have a different mindset on what we do. If you are in Denver , check out Steve Hordencki . Or Phil Cardella down south . We all teach sport . As well as mma and self defense . Unless you have trained with us you don't have a good picture of how things are . You would be welcomed as a friend .
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I've fought Relson guys in tournaments, not always winning by any means. I never said your BJJ was bad, I said a lot of Relson guys don't walk the walk when it comes to fighting MMA. It sounds like you do, which to me totally legitimizes your argument about simple, effective BJJ. But if you're teaching sport stuff as well, isn't that pretty much against what Relson's always saying about sport BJJ? I haven't trained with any Relson guys, I'm only going by what I've heard in interviews which is Relson and his affiliates mostly talking smack about modern BJJ. Is that attitude not the same across his affiliates?
 
lechien said:
You must be new because it has been going for ages.

Even Medhi back in Brasil does not have very nice to say about them.
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Very true - Helio said many times that as many admirers as he may have had, he had twice as many detractors. He and it seems his progeny seem to inspire it by the virtue of success.
 
Ice 9 Cobra said:
No, you're making assumptions. But continue on with your crusade.
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Just observing, not assuming. I think we are close to getting to the bottom of it.

Note: projecting a crusade means you see hating Gracies as a crusade. Also interesting. You believe it does some kind of societal good to "take them down a peg or two?"

Please go on.
 
0ldmanstrength said:
Very true - Helio said many times that as many admirers as he may have had, he had twice as many detractors. He and it seems his progeny seem to inspire it by the virtue of success.
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Oh, so you think it is due to their success that people are "hating" on them.
 
0ldmanstrength said:
Just observing, not assuming. I think we are close to getting to the bottom of it.

Note: projecting a crusade means you see hating Gracies as a crusade. Also interesting. You believe it does some kind of societal good to "take them down a peg or two?"

Please go on.
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You watch a lot of psychology dramas on TV bro?
 
lechien said:
Oh, so you think it is due to their success that people are "hating" on them.
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At least partially. Not entirely. But you can take any two people who have different personalities and let them achieve the same level of success and people can perceive that success very differently based on what they believe the personality to be. Some people are easier to dislike. Galileo, for instance, was slightly less successful than Copernicus describing the heliocentric solar system mathematically, but Copernicus was celebrated in his time and Galileo got himself exiled by being an arrogant asshole.

You dismiss an arrogant asshole on the street as irrelevant, generally. But a successful arrogant asshole will inspire both hero worship and intense hatred. Examples are numerous. Success is a part of the formula but jealousy definitely plays a part in the hatred side as well. So there are plenty of people who see both Helio and a number of his offspring as arrogant assholes who don't deserve the success they've had. So yea, this is the largest explanation.
 
0ldmanstrength said:
So there are plenty of people who see both Helio and a number of his offspring as arrogant assholes who don't deserve the success they've had. So yea, this is the largest explanation.
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Whoa. Sad to hear that you have such perception about the situation.

So I take it that the book named Carlos Gracie that discussed lot of the history of the Gracie (bad and good) is just written by a hater?
 
lechien said:
Whoa. Sad to hear that you have such perception about the situation.

So I take it that the book named Carlos Gracie that discussed lot of the history of the Gracie (bad and good) is just written by a hater?
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I've no comment on that. :)
 
Good question , we all compete at pretty much all the tournaments and do well . Relson coaches at lots of them . So in order to do that we have to train and prepare for them . Each school has a comp team . In fact Relson wants all his black belts to ref . He thinks the self defense aspect is more important so we in order to get our black belts have to know it inside and out . The testing is not easy . Being a high ranking belt that only focuses on sport he believes is wrong . I do too . I train with law enforcement quite a bit and its all the Gracie stuff . Relson requires us to know how to do sport and more importantly how to fight . I've worked with a bunch of high level pure sport guys that get lost when punches and things come . Relsons stuff is incredible in that arena . We have guys in the UFC , one FC , a few in the old Wec and even old school guys that were in Pride . There were a ton of big names that trained with Relson and wore his patch . For example Saulo , Daniel Moraes , Barret Yoshida , Enson Inoue . Some have broken away over the years but all learned a ton from Relson .
 
I agree... I am a Relson Brown Belt and have been to many schools all over... and one thing I have found is that more than any other school Relson guys have true "fighters" more than any other school I have been to. I have also noticed that a belt at a Relson school always seems to match up with the person that has it and was not given due to time or money spent... if you didn't earn it and put in the time as well you don't get it. I have taught self defense to LEO's and they all seem to enjoy that I can show them a move from Relson that can be used in training or sport... and then how to use it in a fight or even more so a REAL LIFE FIGHT, where someone just wants to hurt you. Heck, I use this stuff at work at least once a week and can tell you everything Relson has ever taught me has worked fantastically. Anything he shows you has a way to be applied to real life self defense, not just MMA... this keeps you from doing something that may be sport alone oriented by reflex when you need to actually protect yourself, and getting hurt. He is an awesome guy and I highly recommend training with him or going to one of his affiliate schools, Steve in Colorado, Phil in St. Augustine FL and Toney at Calvert MMA in MD. are all great places to go and train with top notch guys that will also teach you to protect yourself. Everyone is always very friendly and chill.
I just think that people have gotten used to training for points in a competition that is safe with rules, not how to end an encounter that is dangerous and real.
 
That's cool that you guys really look up to your coaches and your coach's coach, but that doesn't mean Relson is the best and meanest Gracie as originally quoted.
 
If you're going to quote me, at least take the time to read the quote in the message I am replying to. Sure he didn't say best, he said toughest. But doesn't diminish the point I made.

toney said:
Back in the day Relson was the meanest and toughest of them all . His jiu-jitsu is very fight based . To say that the Gracie's couldn't fight to save themselves is just ridiculous .
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