BJJ lifestyle = watered down of BJJ?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Charlitos1988, Sep 21, 2013.

  1. Charlitos1988

    Charlitos1988 Purple Belt

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    After reading replies from the Murilo thread I remember that in older days, BJJ black belts were also able to fight under Vale Tudo rules (not even MMA! Vale Tudo), that was like the average ability one should have in order to be accepted as a BJJ blackbelt.

    Now you see Black Belt that cant hold themselves under MMA rules with BJJ alone training.

    Of course the quality of fighters are increased but BJJ'ers nowadays dont know the least aspects that their old counterparts used to know, like closing distance, good takedowns, punch blocking and those things.

    I think the reason for this is the environment were BJJ moved to, and that is from Brasil to America, the change of place led also a change of students market, on Brasil you have economical middle class people with the Gracies but mostly the ones training with Carlson and other BJJ trainers were the ones with not too much money or a good job (Im not laughing about them, here is normal to see those situations) so they see BJJ like a WAY to go to Vale Tudo and fight.
    This plus the "Im the strongest fighter" way of thiking, make BJJ'ers also Vale tudo fighters.

    This radically changed when BJJ go to America were people training were middle class but with lifes insured financially (a job, a family, other goals in life other than fighting) and just trained to be good on the art, not even thinking about Vale Tudo or MMA, just pure BJJ, why? because they didnt have the need to fight, just have fun, loss weight or make new friends... totally different from the goals of people in Brasil about the use of BJJ.

    Im not saying this is bad but this is the real answer why MOST (not all) modern BJJ'ers cant be anymore fighters with enough knowledge to defend themselves on the cage with BJJ only.
     
  2. BJJ Beginner

    BJJ Beginner Green Belt

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    Your theory is destroyed by the simple fact that none of the Gracies can fight to save their lives.
     
  3. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    I think most old school non-Carlson guys who just trained BJJ would get slaughtered in today's MMA. Their TDs really weren't that good, and their striking almost non-existent. They won old school vale tudo fights because no one else really knew BJJ, which is not true anymore. The Carlson guys would probably do fine, but they were basically an MMA team with a BJJ based style from day 1. I think anyone who comes up in a school that focuses a lot on TDs, strong top game, a lot of no-gi, and mixes in striking would do fine if they trained as much as guys like Sperry and Bustamante did. But I don't think that in general the old school BJJ guys would have been that much more prepared for a fight than modern guys. If you want to get good at MMA, you need to train for MMA. That's essentially what the old BTT did from the start but it was never the main intent of the Humaita school (modern MMA that is rather than self defense).
     
  4. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    Renzo could scrap. But he trained a lot more like the Carlson side. His TDs are good and he always had decent hands. And he's just an incredibly tough, game human being.
     
  5. ijustwannasurf

    ijustwannasurf Brown Belt

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    I was under the impression that BJJ was quite the playboy sport in Brazil, regardless of the team.
    Seems the big difference is training methodology, not socioeconomics, re: the watering down effect.
     
  6. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    nop.

    mostly, its due to the evolution of the sports. both mma and bjj... bjj sport side has grown exponentially, and the vale tudo training is normally replaced by MMA training.

    every single black belt probably knows the basics of GJJ, or at least how to close the distance, tds bla bla bla (or should) that is just not enough for todays mma standard, where they fight people who also train bjj, not to mention wreslting and striking.
     
  7. triangle killer

    triangle killer Purple Belt

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    If anything american bjjers have better takedowns as many were probably wrestlers in school. Not saying I generally disagree with what you're saying though.
     
  8. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    right...

    lets say gregor gracie, one of the gracies with the worst records right now... do you think your macho ass can stand 2 minutes infront of him without getting your head ripped off???

    do you think roger losing to a king mo and decision to tim kennedy means he "cant fight"? right a guy who beat ron waterman 300 muscle head wrestler when he was like 22 and have done only bjj? not to mention randleman prangely jadrine and smith...

    your statement is retarded. All these guys can fight, and fight very well, thing is, they are not fighting keyboard warriors or one dimensional fighters anymore, they are fighting profesional fighters....

    i would love to see you stand in front of Rolles and tell him that... lets see how you do...
     
  9. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    I've come to the conclusion that almost all the difference in efficacy of various arts is about training methods rather than techniques. If you're a TKD guy who trains for full contact fighting 3-4 hours a day with lots of hard sparring, you're going to be a striking beast regardless of the fact that TKD may not be the most MMA applicable art. Bendo and Pettis are good examples of that. Same with BJJ vs. wrestling, Judo, sambo, etc. If you train your ass off with a focus on MMA you'll be a badass regardless of the name you put on the art. The best two double leg TDs I've ever seen in MMA are GSP's and Ricardo Arona's, both of whom were BJJ guys long before they ever started wrestling. But their BJJ was always about MMA, so they got good at and integrated TDs from the start and consequently are amazing at them.
     
  10. ijustwannasurf

    ijustwannasurf Brown Belt

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    Quoted for mega truth.

    Class vs. Practice, right?
     
  11. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    this is very true...

    although there is difference between grappling and striking, is the training method what makes greatness, not so much technques (although someone can say a bjj guard is a value aspect that most grappling styles dont have as polish as bjj, or leglocks from catch/sambo which other grappling styles dont have them as polish as well)
     
  12. Darwinist

    Darwinist Super Simian

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    Renzo was different from most of the other Gracies in that after teaching his BJJ classes he had ZERO problem strapping on gloves and being a student at a nearby Muay Thai gym. It's right there in that old documentary on him whose name I can't remember.

    That's why he always had decent hands - he didn't share the arrogant attitude of most of his family that it was somehow more honorable to win if you only knew jiu-jitsu.
     
  13. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    Renzo was a BJJ based MMA fighter, he was IMO the best representative of how BJJ could be effective in modern MMA. Hell, he swept Saku using DLR guard (which people forget was actually invented by a Carlson student for controlling distance in MMA, originally called the Jello guard), hard to get much more BJJ in MMA than that. I always loved Renzo because he was super confident but like you say not so arrogant that he felt he had to do just BJJ. His confidence came from training super hard in all relevant MMA disciplines, rather than assumed pseudo-hereditary superiority.
     
  14. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    ralph and ryan were beasts also...
     
  15. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    Robson's boys are no dilettantes.
     
  16. BJJArsenal

    BJJArsenal Brown Belt

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    I believe it was originally called the 'pudim' guard which means pudding, because the off-balancing felt like you were stuck in pudding.
     
  17. Goat Meal

    Goat Meal Shhh Belt

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    BJJ black belts of yester-year competed in Vale Tudo because the level of competition wasn't that high. You could do okay just learning self-defense aspects of BJJ and go fight on some random VT card. In modern MMA at the highest level you have to be well versed in everything.

    A pure BJJ black belt will likely still do just fine at the regional level.
     
  18. Dogstarman

    Dogstarman Old man jiu jitsu

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    Really. Full time bjj guys vs full time MMA guys? Some, not all, MMA guys would lose at the highest levels of BJJ and BJJ guys would lose at the highest levels of MMA. It's where your focus is at.
     
  19. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    Because they no longer are raised in an environment where the are forced to constantly prove themselves.
     
  20. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    I don't think that has anything to do with his point. I think he's trying to explain how the "BJJ lifestyle" became divorced from fighting.
     

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