Bigger PPV? Jones-Cormier or Jones-Gustafson?

[MMAcolyte]

Tough to say. But if they both finish their next opponents in impressive fashion I think the hype will be outta control

 

[knspiracy]

LOL at question.

 

[cruz2990]

DC vs Bones for sure and I think it will answer the question of whether bones moves up to HW which leads into a possible superfight with Cain....

 

[Got GOAT]

Yes. Race is a myth. That's why Tolkien has so many races in his books (elves, orcs, ents, hobbits, dwarves, even trolls like yourself)... because he's into myth making. Reading along as you invoke 'science' to discuss a cultural phenomenon with no scientific basis is at once enraging and hilarious.

Yeah, cuz science fiction > actual science. Let me guess, you thought that The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings was real, right? :icon_lol: There's the human race, anatomically the same. There are subraces under the hierarchy of said human race. For instance, Caucasoids differ from Armenids anatomically (their facial features, for starters). Cool 'bro science' from you though, Mr. Dolce.

I started writing a response to you on DC's wrestling style, but it was so clear you didn't know the first thing about wrestling, I abandoned it and moved on with my life. Since it's obviously still keeping you up at night, though, here's goes:

No you didn't. In fact, I still have that link bookmarked pointing to the thread that you abandoned. You couldn't prove your point. It's really that simple. BTW, I actually wrestled and I sincerely doubt that you ever did despite claiming that you even 'coached' wrestling. Standing on the sidelines isn't wrestling, nor is it "coaching".

DC has always been an undersized wrestler for his chosen weight class, just like Cain. And so, just like Cain, he's developed a take down game that doesn't get him caught underneath bigger, stronger opponents. Cain likes the inside single; DC likes the outside single (or high crotch).

Sounds like excuses for DC already. If you really want to push that DC likes the "outside" single leg, then please, show me multiple instances of DC SHOOTING in from where I said... mid to outer boxing range, hell, even kicking range. The one time he did against a non-UFC fighter it looked pathetic in his highlight. So, the fact remains, Cormier has great clinch-based and clinch-range takedowns and nothing more that he's shown in MMA.

Askren is an undersized/underpowered guy at a smaller weight class, so he has also developed a sneaky takedown game. Since he's not wrestling behemoth's though, he's not as concerned about getting stuck under them, so he dives deep and then works out the side or back door.

Show me DANIEL CORMIER, a freestyle Olympian, shooting from preferably outer boxing range (or even kicking range) and getting a successful takedown. Show me how impressive his shot is at covering distance quickly in MMA competition. Need an example of someone doing this? GSP, a Karateka that developed a great shot for his double leg, one developed enough to cover the distance very quickly (and safely).

Most guys wrestle according to their body type and, to a lesser extent, the body type of their opponent.

I wrestled, I know this. In fact, Ben himself had a 'funky' style because he is lanky compared to the prototypical short, stocky wrestler, and he was able to do things that they were not able to because of the anatomical differences.

JJ is tall, so he likes to load guys up with underhooks or, because he is often so much taller than his opponents, even with the whizzer.

See above. Not to mention that getting say double unders is very common despite your height, but whatever. This is MMA, keep that in mind.

If you're looking for blast doubles, you'll need to watch compact powerhouses like Hendricks or GSP.

GSP is the best example of this, clearly. That's why him and Olympic gold medalist Jordan Burroughs have hung out and there's pictures of the two (Burroughs being the modern day king of the double leg).

You create the range you need for the type of take down you plan to employ. DC does just fine getting to the high crotch from the clinch or from outside.

Tell me something I don't already know. Again, show me DC doing what I ask. Is it really that hard to ask of for a freestyle Olympian and the captain of his wrestling team at that? It isn't.

All of which was just a huge waste of time, considering that you don't know what you're talking about and you don't care to learn, which is why I didn't bother the first time around.

Yeah, more like you couldn't answer. You'll have the chance to 'now'. :wink:

 

[RB777]

people in sweden are def very interested in it - jones cormier is doing everything right promotionally (even if unintentionally), they are going to get a big buy rate - they are talking smack on espn etc. - that kind of thing makes a difference, in my opinion - not to mention its a ridiculously intriguing fight without the controversy

gus / jones is interesting too but since jones pulled through and won last time, i think its slightly less interesting, gus only has one win over an okay opponent since, so its not like hes been ripping sht up - im still interested but less so - i think jones haters are very interested, thats for sure, since he looked more human than ever before and even lost rounds - if a finish of anthony johnson happens though, then that will be a totally diff situation - hard to say at the moment

I think people are interested if Gus can train those few things that stopped him from wining the first fight.

They are curious to how hungry or haunted he is after playing that first fight over and over in his head and all the tips, training partners and game plans he has had since.

Will he make an example of Jones.

Or will Jones make an example of him.

Everyone wants to know!

 

[RB777]

Yeah, cuz science fiction > actual science. Let me guess, you thought that The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings was real, right? :icon_lol: There's the human race, anatomically the same. There are subraces under the hierarchy of said human race. For instance, Caucasoids differ from Armenids anatomically (their facial features, for starters). Cool 'bro science' from you though, Mr. Dolce.



No you didn't. In fact, I still have that link bookmarked pointing to the thread that you abandoned. You couldn't prove your point. It's really that simple. BTW, I actually wrestled and I sincerely doubt that you ever did despite claiming that you even 'coached' wrestling. Standing on the sidelines isn't wrestling, nor is it "coaching".



Sounds like excuses for DC already. If you really want to push that DC likes the "outside" single leg, then please, show me multiple instances of DC SHOOTING in from where I said... mid to outer boxing range, hell, even kicking range. The one time he did against a non-UFC fighter it looked pathetic in his highlight. So, the fact remains, Cormier has great clinch-based and clinch-range takedowns and nothing more that he's shown in MMA.



Show me DANIEL CORMIER, a freestyle Olympian, shooting from preferably outer boxing range (or even kicking range) and getting a successful takedown. Show me how impressive his shot is at covering distance quickly in MMA competition. Need an example of someone doing this? GSP, a Karateka that developed a great shot for his double leg, one developed enough to cover the distance very quickly (and safely).



I wrestled, I know this. In fact, Ben himself had a 'funky' style because he is lanky compared to the prototypical short, stocky wrestler, and he was able to do things that they were not able to because of the anatomical differences.



See above. Not to mention that getting say double unders is very common despite your height, but whatever. This is MMA, keep that in mind.



GSP is the best example of this, clearly. That's why him and Olympic gold medalist Jordan Burroughs have hung out and there's pictures of the two (Burroughs being the modern day king of the double leg).



Tell me something I don't already know. Again, show me DC doing what I ask. Is it really that hard to ask of for a freestyle Olympian and the captain of his wrestling team at that? It isn't.



Yeah, more like you couldn't answer. You'll have the chance to 'now'. :wink:

OMG...these guys not fooling around!

I am learning a lot from this.

 

[RB777]

DC vs Bones for sure and I think it will answer the question of whether bones moves up to HW which leads into a possible superfight with Cain....

Very interesting...I had not made that connection.

Even more interesting when you think of it that way. Thx.

 

[Jermei]

Jones / Cormier will be the biggest fight in years and the Gus rematch wont come close.

 

[RB777]

So your basically saying Gus because hes white (see below). Even though Gus tied with Texiera for Jones lowest PPV buy rate to date.





Plus Rashad vs Rampage also did over a million buys. For a non title fight. I cant think of another non title fight that had more buys.

Most I've seen for a non title fight.

 

[RB777]

Jones / Cormier will be the biggest fight in years and the Gus rematch wont come close.

If Jones gets through Cormier easily...I think fans will be seriously interested in seeing if Gus just has that "thing" that makes him a bad match up for Jones.

 

[effedup]

Cormier, both are undefeated, always more interesting than a rematch IMO

Came in to say just this.. Plus both fighters have great striking, strong wrestling and everyone knows how every day Cormier gets to work with the HW Champ.

 

[DGT4NOW]

Jones/Cormier by far!

 

[Got GOAT]

OMG...these guys not fooling around!

I am learning a lot from this.

You're absolutely right, I am not playing around. And I can see that my friend Jeremy Emilio, once again, forfeited the match. :icon_lol: He can't show me DC demonstrating what I'm simply asking for, that's why. He'd rather just make excuses for the guy. All I'm asking for is for DC to prove his shot's effectiveness, it's that simple. All I've seen from DC's shot in MMA is very close range, clinch range, little distance coverage from it when getting a takedown. GSP could literally shoot in a mile away (outside of kicking range) and get a double leg takedown, or even a single leg if he probably wanted to (he just preferred the double for control).

This jeremy guy is that same dude that tried to tell me that DC was such a better wrestler than Weidman, about a month ago, but Weidman is one of the very best wrestlers in MMA. His takedown game has been proven not just inside the clinch and clinch range, but outside of that in outer boxing range and even kicking range. He has an effective shot for his single and double leg TDs that covers that extra gap (distance) in the first place, DC has not effectively shown this in MMA, at least not in the major organizations.

Not to mention that Weidman will actually think about passing proactively and not retroactively. He'll shoot in for a double leg and turn it into a trip after cutting an angle, landing him directly into side control to work from there. DC will not intelligently do this against his opponents, where they fall is where they fall (and he gets all of his TDs from the clinch and inside clinch range, NOT from the distance).

 

[effedup]

If Jones gets through Cormier easily...I think fans will be seriously interested in seeing if Gus just has that "thing" that makes him a bad match up for Jones.

I don't think Gus is necessarily a bad match up for him, though he is always going to give Jones fits because of his reach and footwork. With a better understanding of Alex and tweaks to the game plan I would say that Jones would win more definitively than the last time.

But that is if Gus stays on his bike like he did the first time, If Alex understands that he needs to be the one pressuring Jon then the outcome will favor him imo.

This is why the rematch is fuckin awesome because it boils down to who learned more about their opponent in the first fight. If Alex can land clean shots like he did against Manuwa, oh man Jon is going to be in for a long or short night.

Really though Alex is just a day late and a dollar short as I think DC is the one who will dismantle Jones. He already has the right mind set on what him and his team thinks will work on Jon (pressure and make it a dog fight). I've been saying for years that the last thing that JBJ wants is a brawl and the person to beat him will be someone that constantly moves him backwards and can somehow get in his face. So we'll see if it's true.

And I don't think anyone really thinks JBJ is going to walk through him, I mean it's possible that he can but imo this will be the toughest fight Jon has ever had.

 

[HaterSlayer]

The UFC had the option to put Jones vs. Gus II back together after Jon got hurt. They didn't because Jones-Cormier is the bigger fight right now.

 

[Got GOAT]

I don't think Gus is necessarily a bad match up for him, though he is always going to give Jones fits because of his reach and footwork. With a better understanding of Alex and tweaks to the game plan I would say that Jones would win more definitively than the last time.

Jones isn't going to close the gap in hand striking (boxing), of such a large disparity, quite that quickly. While he's shown better defense (against Glover) in the pocket, that was against a very slow handed fighter inside a certain range. Gustafsson will maul Jones inside the pocket and in mid to outer boxing range like he did last time. Miracles don't happen overnight and not a year after their fight, especially not while Gustafsson is also getting noticeably better at the same game (his base being boxing, after all).

But that is if Gus stays on his bike like he did the first time, If Alex understands that he needs to be the one pressuring Jon then the outcome will favor him imo.

Alex does understand this. In fact, Gustafsson has been the only one to get Jon on the back foot somewhat consistently, while landing damaging, significant strikes. Even Lyoto could not do this, he just forced Jon onto the back foot after blitzing him due to Jon's overcommitment.

This is why the rematch is fuckin awesome because it boils down to who learned more about their opponent in the first fight. If Alex can land clean shots like he did against Manuwa, oh man Jon is going to be in for a long or short night.

Alex wasn't swinging for the knockout exactly in their first fight. He's been using about half-powered shots for years now, his coach's suggestion, in order to maintain the most awareness possible at any given time while attacking. He wasn't fully committing to the majority of shots that he landed. If he cuts his opponent off and has them trapped (against the cage for instance), he'll know to unload with full-powered strikes (punches specifically), ask Manuwa.

Really though Alex is just a day late and a dollar short as I think DC is the one who will dismantle Jones. He already has the right mind set on what him and his team thinks will work on Jon (pressure and make it a dog fight). I've been saying for years that the last thing that JBJ wants is a brawl and the person to beat him will be someone that constantly moves him backwards and can somehow get in his face. So we'll see if it's true.

How will DC close that gap in distance safely against Jon? I keep hearing how he'll teleport to the inside and that's fine and dandy but the fact remains, he will eat shots on the way in. Despite being an olympic freestyle wrestler, he has not shown a good enough shot (in his wrestling takedowns) to close that distance with a single or double leg attempt like GSP made his career off of. DC specializes in clinch-based and clinch range-based takedowns, and that's literally after he's already managed to close the gap. Is he going to jab his way in? With what educated jab? DC either closes the gap, and somehow does it safely for himself, or he gets brutalized from outer boxing range and kicking range. That's a fact.

 

[RB777]

You're absolutely right, I am not playing around. And I can see that my friend Jeremy Emilio, once again, forfeited the match. :icon_lol: He can't show me DC demonstrating what I'm simply asking for, that's why. He'd rather just make excuses for the guy. All I'm asking for is for DC to prove his shot's effectiveness, it's that simple. All I've seen from DC's shot in MMA is very close range, clinch range, little distance coverage from it when getting a takedown. GSP could literally shoot in a mile away (outside of kicking range) and get a double leg takedown, or even a single leg if he probably wanted to (he just preferred the double for control).

This jeremy guy is that same dude that tried to tell me that DC was such a better wrestler than Weidman, about a month ago, but Weidman is one of the very best wrestlers in MMA. His takedown game has been proven not just inside the clinch and clinch range, but outside of that in outer boxing range and even kicking range. He has an effective shot for his single and double leg TDs that covers that extra gap (distance) in the first place, DC has not effectively shown this in MMA, at least not in the major organizations.

Not to mention that Weidman will actually think about passing proactively and not retroactively. He'll shoot in for a double leg and turn it into a trip after cutting an angle, landing him directly into side control to work from there. DC will not intelligently do this against his opponents, where they fall is where they fall (and he gets all of his TDs from the clinch and inside clinch range, NOT from the distance).

I think Greg Jackson will make sure Jon punishes Dan for his take down deficiencies.

Can't wait to see the post fight action between you and Jeremy.

 

[RB777]

I don't think Gus is necessarily a bad match up for him, though he is always going to give Jones fits because of his reach and footwork. With a better understanding of Alex and tweaks to the game plan I would say that Jones would win more definitively than the last time.

But that is if Gus stays on his bike like he did the first time, If Alex understands that he needs to be the one pressuring Jon then the outcome will favor him imo.

This is why the rematch is fuckin awesome because it boils down to who learned more about their opponent in the first fight. If Alex can land clean shots like he did against Manuwa, oh man Jon is going to be in for a long or short night.

Really though Alex is just a day late and a dollar short as I think DC is the one who will dismantle Jones. He already has the right mind set on what him and his team thinks will work on Jon (pressure and make it a dog fight). I've been saying for years that the last thing that JBJ wants is a brawl and the person to beat him will be someone that constantly moves him backwards and can somehow get in his face. So we'll see if it's true.

And I don't think anyone really thinks JBJ is going to walk through him, I mean it's possible that he can but imo this will be the toughest fight Jon has ever had.

I also don't think Gus is a bad match up for Jones. He pushed an injured Jones to the limit in their first fight.

The next fight will be scary. Jones with something to prove and will do everything in his power to finish Gus in violent fashion because of all the grief the slim victory in the first caused him.

Cormier's attitude is reminding me of Rampage a little. I am guessing that Jones will gash and smash Cormier. Cormier has not really been hurt and wonder if can find a way to win while hurt like Jones did against Gus.

 

[RB777]

Came in to say just this.. Plus both fighters have great striking, strong wrestling and everyone knows how every day Cormier gets to work with the HW Champ.

Very true, however I think Jones has a bigger box of exotic tools (remember the standing shoulder torque he injured Glover with for example) and will use totally new tactics to confound his opponent.

And will change his gameplay on the fly if he sees a hole in Cormier's game.

Jones by fight IQ.

 

[Toco]

The first Jones-Gustafsson PPV didn't do real well, but, the rematch will sell like bananas. Their match up is now a proven commodity, won Fight of The Year and was voted the greatest fight of all time by Fight Pass subscribers.

Both are big fights but nobody really knows how DC will do against Jones. With Jones-Gus, we already know what to expect... lots of entertainment, perhaps another war, and two extremely talented guys that bring it.

not sure if it will be as hyped if it were granted an instant rematch

now it could/would happen almost 2 years after the first fight