Best HWs Ever?

[BFoe]

Who were the 4 UFC champs Fedor beat?

Sorry, I'm not trying to discredit Fedor in this conversation but the 4 champions you speak of is counting Frank Mir in Bellator and Rampage Jackson in Bellator? That's a joke.

Tim Sylvia was also past his prime or in a weird place when he lost to Fedor, not sure if I'd say that was a "prime" form of Sylvia at all, in fact I wouldn't. And the 4th guy is Arlovski? And at the time he was getting knocked out left and right from what I recall, he did have a resurgence after that fight but still...kind of an eh win at the time imo.

It would be far more impressive to list wins over Big Nog x2, and even Coleman x2 + Randleman. I guess Coleman was a HW champion in the UFC technically at one point, so I guess Fedor beat 5 UFC champions. Well rack that to 6 if we count Big Nog's interim title.

No he wasn't getting knocked out left and right, not at the time they fought. The losing spree started after the Fedor fight.

No, TS wasn’t counting Mir or Rampage. Counting them and Nog’s UFC interim belt, the number would be 7. TS only counted those beaten in Fedor’s initial undefeated run, without counting Nog for being a future UFC champ.

Arlovksi was on a 5 fight win streak when he fought Fedor, which included wins over Werdum, Nelson, and Rothwell.
Sylvia has fought for the UFC interim belt in the fight preceding the Fedor fight. He had been UFC champ until early 2007. He fought Fedor about a year and a half after losing the belt. Not exactly far past his prime.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Sylvia and Arlovski were legit wins.
- Sylvia was 23-4. He had lost his title 3 fights prior to Couture (Decision) and an interim title fight to Nog (Fight where Nog was getting whooped)
- Alrovski was on a 5 fight winning streak where he beat Rothwell (KO), Nelson (KO) and Werdum (Decision)

Anyone counting the Mir and Rampage wins as being legit are just silly. Fedor's been out of his prime for a decade now. The only legit fighter he's been matched up with was Bader and he got KO'd in less then a minute,

Fighters shouldn't be judged for the tail half of there careers. Combat sports are unique because you're able to complete well past your prime unlike other spots. It's rare to see guys go out on top.

I don't agree sorry.

Sylvia lost to Couture, an old ass LHW at that point. He had already had hip/lower back issues or something. He beat Vera, but then lost to Big Nog. Then went to a different org where he fought Fedor and lost, then proceeded to get knocked out in 9 seconds to Ray Mercer (with some weird rule stipulations sure, still).

The last part of your statement really doesn't make sense of have any consistency with justifying Sylvia and Arlovski as legit wins. I could maybe count Arlovski, but it was part of a 4 fight skid then he fought bums in weird orgs until his resurgence in the UFC.

The real problem here is "Fighters shouldn't be judged for the tail half of there careers."

Okay, well I agree and disagree at the same time. I agree that Silva shouldn't be judged for his late career stuff, but he should be for his losses to Weidman and somewhat for his steroid use, potentially that was used earlier too we don't know now. And I agree Fedor shouldn't be judged for his Bellator shit.

But, if we are counting the Sylvia and Arlovski wins as quality here, then why is there an arbitrary line in the sand drawn between those two wins, and then his struggle against Brett Rogers, and his 3 fight losing streak to Werdum/Bigfoot/Hendo right after?

The Sylvia fight was in July 2008, the Arlovski fight was in Jan. 2009. Rogers fight was only 6 months after the Arlovski fight, and he lost in June 2010, July 2011, and Feb. 2011. He was 33 years old to 35 years old during these losses as a HW. He wasn't very active over this period of time. So maybe he was past his prime here and his mojo/chin was magically gone, but it's just so convenient and evidence-less to say that imo.

I think Fedor is still currently the HW GOAT, hanging on by a thread. I could argue DC or Stipe as it, no one else really has an argument other than these 3 in my opinion. But Fedor clearly fought a lot of cans and weak competition, and I know there are a lot of Pride stans here and Fedor stans...agree to disagree I don't want to hear about random Japanese pro wrestlers.

 

[Sweater of AV]

Fedor
Big Nog

The rest.

 

[Zebra Cheeks]

Reading Nog just as an honorable mention hurts my soul.

My brain almost short circuited. I was like “YOU FORGOT NOG-“ then I saw the honorable mention.

 

[Taric]

I don't agree sorry.

Sylvia lost to Couture, an old ass LHW at that point. He had already had hip/lower back issues or something. He beat Vera, but then lost to Big Nog. Then went to a different org where he fought Fedor and lost, then proceeded to get knocked out in 9 seconds to Ray Mercer (with some weird rule stipulations sure, still).

The last part of your statement really doesn't make sense of have any consistency with justifying Sylvia and Arlovski as legit wins. I could maybe count Arlovski, but it was part of a 4 fight skid then he fought bums in weird orgs until his resurgence in the UFC.

The real problem here is "Fighters shouldn't be judged for the tail half of there careers."

Okay, well I agree and disagree at the same time. I agree that Silva shouldn't be judged for his late career stuff, but he should be for his losses to Weidman and somewhat for his steroid use, potentially that was used earlier too we don't know now. And I agree Fedor shouldn't be judged for his Bellator shit.

But, if we are counting the Sylvia and Arlovski wins as quality here, then why is there an arbitrary line in the sand drawn between those two wins, and then his struggle against Brett Rogers, and his 3 fight losing streak to Werdum/Bigfoot/Hendo right after?

The Sylvia fight was in July 2008, the Arlovski fight was in Jan. 2009. Rogers fight was only 6 months after the Arlovski fight, and he lost in June 2010, July 2011, and Feb. 2011. He was 33 years old to 35 years old during these losses as a HW. He wasn't very active over this period of time. So maybe he was past his prime here and his mojo/chin was magically gone, but it's just so convenient and evidence-less to say that imo.

I think Fedor is still currently the HW GOAT, hanging on by a thread. I could argue DC or Stipe as it, no one else really has an argument other than these 3 in my opinion. But Fedor clearly fought a lot of cans and weak competition, and I know there are a lot of Pride stans here and Fedor stans...agree to disagree I don't want to hear about random Japanese pro wrestlers.

Tim Sylvia was the #4 HW and Andrei Arlovski was the #2 HW at the time Fedor defeated them. That makes them both top 5 fighters at the time.

Your opinion is shit.

 

[No Skill Gap]

No, TS wasn’t counting Mir or Rampage. Counting them and Nog’s UFC interim belt, the number would be 7. TS only counted those beaten in Fedor’s initial undefeated run, without counting Nog for being a future UFC champ.

Arlovksi was on a 5 fight win streak when he fought Fedor, which included wins over Werdum, Nelson, and Rothwell.
Sylvia has fought for the UFC interim belt in the fight preceding the Fedor fight. He had been UFC champ until early 2007. He fought Fedor about a year and a half after losing the belt. Not exactly far past his prime.

Fair point on Arlovski, but I think that ties into Fedor's next 4 fights. I don't think he should be considered magically washed up at that point and have those losses scrubbed from the record books as many fans of his do.

Clearly you're a fan with that pic. Like I said, I think he's still the HW GOAT. That is my opinion. But I'm not fanatical either, I grew up as a kid watching Fedor and that was kind of the mystical guy that my dad and grown men (bjj guys) would talk about as the best there is. I don't believe that. I still think he has the best HW resume' and I think it's more impressive because he could have fought at LHW probably...or theoretically.

But I think he faced a lot of mediocre to can crushing competition during his prime in Pride. I don't think that Sylvia win should be counted as a prime Sylvia either, I don't think he was. Arlovski, sure fine. But then he lost to Werdum...got caught by a sub. Knocked out by an enormous TRT/Steroid using giant, and lost to a LHW on TRT. Was Fedor using something? We don't know that. But we do know everyone else was, so that's the only grain of salt or excuse I can allow...in my judgement of his legacy.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Tim Sylvia was the #4 HW and Andrei Arlovski was the #2 HW at the time Fedor defeated them. That makes them both top 5 fighters at the time.

Your opinion is shit.

Yes thank you, I know you're a delusional Pride dick sucker. Thanks for those arbitrary rankings. If I was to be a petty dickhead like you I guess I'd say:

What rank was Dan Henderson as a HW when he beat Fedor?

he was a 185er / 205er past his prime and basically 41 years old when he beat Fedor. So should we look up his rank? I think he was...unranked. But does that mean Fedor is bad? Obviously not. Anyone can get caught. He might have been past his prime, but he was like 34-35 at the time. I don't need some stone-age caveman illiterate MMA rankings from 2008, that doesn't invalidate my opinion because you have a Fedor poster above your bed.

Edit: But fair point...maybe Arlovski and Sylvia were better than I recall at the time. Maybe it was the perception of them fighting in another org as well.

 

[No Skill Gap]

Stipe has the best wins.
Fedor had the longest streak.
Ngannou and CroCop most feared.

You could make an argument for any of these tbh, maybe not Ngannou but he is shaping up to potentially be one in the future.

IMHO, it’s Miocic. beat Reem, JDS, Francis, Werdum and a comeback against Cormier. All in spectacular fashion!

Ngannou's name doesn't deserve to be mentioned yet.

 

[Taric]

Yes thank you, I know you're a delusional Pride dick sucker. Thanks for those arbitrary rankings. If I was to be a petty dickhead like you I guess I'd say:

What rank was Dan Henderson as a HW when he beat Fedor?

he was a 185er / 205er past his prime and basically 41 years old when he beat Fedor. So should we look up his rank? I think he was...unranked. But does that mean Fedor is bad? Obviously not. Anyone can get caught. He might have been past his prime, but he was like 34-35 at the time. I don't need some stone-age caveman illiterate MMA rankings from 2008, that doesn't invalidate my opinion because you have a Fedor poster above your bed.

What does literally anything you said have to do with the quality of victory Sylvia and Arlovski were in 2008 and 2009, who fought at HW their entire careers? Their HW fights, and thus their HW rankings, can be tracked and traced every single year of their fighting careers.

Also how does acknowledging the two most accomplished UFC champions at the time period make me a PRIDE dick sucker lol

 

[BROWNPRIDE]

Fedor
Cain V
DC
Stipe
Big nog
Werdum
Couture
JDS
AA
Reem

 

[No Skill Gap]

What does literally anything you said have to do with the quality of victory Sylvia and Arlovski were in 2008 and 2009, who fought at HW their entire careers? Their HW fights, and thus their HW rankings, can be tracked and traced every single year of their fighting careers.

The point is that Fedor is magically in his prime when he beats Sylvia and Arlovski, and let's say they were both prime. But then he magically isn't in his prime during the Rogers-Werdum-Big Foot-Hendo stretch.

The timeline here runs from 2008 to 2011. The Rogers fight was only 6 months after the Arlovski fight, and the rest are within 1.5-2.5 years roughly of the Sylvia fight.

I realize you love Pride and Fedor, yeah we've had this debate before...I recall that at least. So I'm not going to change your mind. It's all good. And my stance is that Fedor is the GOAT at HW as it stands anyway. But yes I was wrong about Arlovski/Sylvia to some extent, maybe totally.

 

[Taric]

The point is that Fedor is magically in his prime when he beats Sylvia and Arlovski, and let's say they were both prime. But then he magically isn't in his prime during the Rogers-Werdum-Big Foot-Hendo stretch.

The timeline here runs from 2008 to 2011. The Rogers fight was only 6 months after the Arlovski fight, and the rest are within 1.5-2.5 years roughly of the Sylvia fight.

I realize you love Pride and Fedor, yeah we've had this debate before...I recall that at least. So I'm not going to change your mind. It's all good. And my stance is that Fedor is the GOAT at HW as it stands anyway. But yes I was wrong about Arlovski/Sylvia to some extent, maybe totally.

At literally no point in my time as a Sherdog poster have I ever said Werdum defeating Fedor was not one of the highest quality victories in MMA history. I certainly haven't within this thread. Shit, I consider Werdum among the top 3 most accomplished HWs largely as a result of him having a victory over a #1 HW at the time... meaning Fedor.

You are arguing with ghosts kids.

 

[SJP_SevenLaker]

 

[SaigeVanZant]

Stipe
DC
Werdum
Cain
JDS
Reem

 

[No Skill Gap]

At literally no point in my time as a Sherdog poster have I ever said Werdum defeating Fedor was not one of the highest quality victories in MMA history. I certainly haven't within this thread. Shit, I consider Werdum among the top 3 most accomplished HWs largely as a result of him having a victory over a #1 HW at the time... meaning Fedor.

You are arguing with ghosts kids.

No one has ever said that Fedor was past his prime when he lost to Werdum and/or Big Foot and/or Henderson?

lol

 

[Shaddows]

Just sitting around with nothing to do, so I put together a list off the top of my head. Let me know if you agree or not:

Fedor – longest win streak, beat four UFC champs
Miocic – great resume and really well rounded
Cormier – great resume and two division champ
Crocop – probably the most feared fighter during his prime
Werdum – tapped out two of the best HWs ever
Valasquez – some amazing and gritty wins
Coleman – father of ground and pound, 1st UFC HW champ
Barnett – was ranked a top-10 HW forever
Couture – two division champ that changed the game
Vovchanchyn – opened the door for Russian fighters, amazing highlight reel

Honorable Mentions: Nogueria, Mir, Lesner, Reem

Yes, I know: Silvia isn't on the list. Don't think his reign stands the test of time.

LOL

You put Coleman, Barnett, Couture or Igor on that list...
While Nog is Honorable mention and no Bas at all?

Sorry, your list sucks...

 

[Shaddows]

1. Fedor

You can have the next how ever you want ranked...

Nog
Werdum
Stipe
Mirko
Cormier

Legends

Couture
Coleman
Igor

Fun to watch
Brock
Mir
Reem
Barnett
Velasquez (brought to my attention I missed him from the OP list)
***think I got each fighter mentioned

missed Bas IMO
if not due to injuries, he could have been GOAT.
...And since you added Cain, then why not BAS?

 

[Kowboy On Sherdog]

missed Bas IMO
if not due to injuries, he could have been GOAT.
...And since you added Cain, then why not BAS?

I just went with the names listed. Personally would have added JDS , Bas and Arlovski somewhere... maybe a few more with some thought.

 

[po_thead]

Well, Fedor is first and nobody else is close

Nog
Werdum
Stipe
Cain
JDS

I also think prime Cro Cop wrecks Stipe in a ring, but I may be biased

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

The point is that Fedor is magically in his prime when he beats Sylvia and Arlovski

no. Fedor was already past his prime vs Arlovski.