Best HWs Ever?

[ferrisjso]

Just sitting around with nothing to do, so I put together a list off the top of my head. Let me know if you agree or not:

Fedor – longest win streak, beat four UFC champs
Miocic – great resume and really well rounded
Cormier – great resume and two division champ
Crocop – probably the most feared fighter during his prime
Werdum – tapped out two of the best HWs ever
Valasquez – some amazing and gritty wins
Coleman – father of ground and pound, 1st UFC HW champ
Barnett – was ranked a top-10 HW forever
Couture – two division champ that changed the game
Vovchanchyn – opened the door for Russian fighters, amazing highlight reel

Honorable Mentions: Nogueria, Mir, Lesner, Reem

Yes, I know: Silvia isn't on the list. Don't think his reign stands the test of time.

There's a long list of guys who can make a credible case for.

Rutten was the best of the Pancrase golden age, undefeated in the UFC should be there. Dos Santos should be on there. I'd have Carwin above some of the guys you have on there but he's clearly not the GOAT. I don't think there's a case for Coleman, being champ in both UFC and Pride(GP) is great but too much losing even for HW. I'd have Randleman instead

Hendo cause he won King of Kings(OW) at his size. Henderson I think doesn't fit on any divisional list though tbh. The would be MW's/LHW's who fought at OW(back when these divisions were actually small) deserve some credit.

DC probably has the best case right now(Werdum lost and is prolly going to lose to Gus) he got finished by Stipe and won every other round. He lost to Jones, almost got finished by Gus but I think Jones and Gus beat most of the rest of this list. Just has the least amount of holes in the resume.

 

[Taric]

No one has ever said that Fedor was past his prime when he lost to Werdum and/or Big Foot and/or Henderson?

lol

You're aware you're speaking with me right now, yes? Are you aware of what year this is? I sure hope so.

This game of trying to tell me that I'm a PRIDE dick sucker for pointing out pure facts to you is some special ed shit. How fucking stupid are you buddy? Do you know what a strawman argument is?

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

Fedor and Nog always top my personal list.

After that I generally think of Stipe, Werdum, and JDS in a tier.

After that, Cain/HW DC

After that, Cro Cop/Barnett/Randy...that's roughly my top 10 in tier form.

In terms of peak value, it's between peak Fedor, DC, and Cain (IMHO). I'd take Fedor in a ring and probably DC in a cage.

 

[C0NCH3TO]

Hendo has wins over Fedor and Big Nog.

 

[Barteh]

1. Fedor

2. Werdum
3. Big Nog

Honourable mentions:
Cain, JDS, Igor, Rutten

 

[Young Joe]

Stipe.
When considering UFC only.

 

[Local Plata]

I can't believe you put Barnett on the list. Most perennial overrated multiple failed drug test clown who got KTFO by Travis fucking Browne.

 

[TheComebackKid]

Tier 1
Fedor | Big Nog

Tier 2
Barnett | Mirko | Werdum | JDS

Tier 3
Bas | Couture | Cain V | Overeem | Cormier | Stipe

Tier 4
Royce | Shamrock | Coleman | Funaki | Mir | Sylvia | Arlovski | Brock |

Tier 5
Severn | Rizzo | Ricco | Sergei | Aleks | Hunt | Rothwell| Bigfoot | Lewis | Ngannou​

 

[No Skill Gap]

You're aware you're speaking with me right now, yes? Are you aware of what year this is? I sure hope so.

This game of trying to tell me that I'm a PRIDE dick sucker for pointing out pure facts to you is some special ed shit. How fucking stupid are you buddy? Do you know what a strawman argument is?

I was originally responding to someone who said this:

"Fighters shouldn't be judged for the tail half of there careers. Combat sports are unique because you're able to complete well past your prime unlike other spots. It's rare to see guys go out on top."

And you responded to MY response to his statements, which included that. So if you could, you know read instead of jerking off to pictures of Rin Nakai and freakshow can crushing fights, then maybe you would have saw that and not cried strawman.

I admit that maybe I'm wrong, or I am wrong to some degree on Arlovski and Sylvia. I don't think they were necessarily in their primes or at great points in their careers, they also both fought in a ring with ropes as opposed to a cage. Maybe that's an excuse. Okay. Well then we can't talk about Fedor fighting in a cage either.

Regardless Arlovski had a glass chin phase and down period after that fight, and Sylvia was completely washed and a joke after that fight. Were they coming off good runs in the UFC prior to each fight? Sure, and that's where I admit to being wrong and not recalling it properly. But I didn't think Tim Sylvia was great at the time either, nor Arlovski from what I remember.

It's not a strawman on another level also when people constantly cite Fedor being past his prime in the Strikeforce era and I would bet a lot of money you've said it yourself, so fuck off. And I called you a Pride dick sucker because I vividly recall you being a delusional Pride bot in a similar debate over Fedor. I already know you're extremely biased with no objectivity whatsoever.

Also all the bullshit aside, I don't want to have a petty argument. It seems like you do. I've stated that I think Fedor is currently the HW GOAT what...3 times in this thread? Ok then thanks for the "debate".

 

[Taric]

I was originally responding to someone who said this:

"Fighters shouldn't be judged for the tail half of there careers. Combat sports are unique because you're able to complete well past your prime unlike other spots. It's rare to see guys go out on top."

And you responded to MY response to his statements, which included that. So if you could, you know read instead of jerking off to pictures of Rin Nakai and freakshow can crushing fights, then maybe you would have saw that and not cried strawman.

I admit that maybe I'm wrong, or I am wrong to some degree on Arlovski and Sylvia. I don't think they were necessarily in their primes or at great points in their careers, they also both fought in a ring with ropes as opposed to a cage. Maybe that's an excuse. Okay. Well then we can't talk about Fedor fighting in a cage either.

Regardless Arlovski had a glass chin phase and down period after that fight, and Sylvia was completely washed and a joke after that fight. Were they coming off good runs in the UFC prior to each fight? Sure, and that's where I admit to being wrong and not recalling it properly. But I didn't think Tim Sylvia was great at the time either, nor Arlovski from what I remember.

It's not a strawman on another level also when people constantly cite Fedor being past his prime in the Strikeforce era and I would bet a lot of money you've said it yourself, so fuck off. And I called you a Pride dick sucker because I vividly recall you being a delusional Pride bot in a similar debate over Fedor. I already know you're extremely biased with no objectivity whatsoever.

Tim Sylvia was the #4 HW and Andrei Arlovski was the #2 HW at the time Fedor defeated them. That makes them both top 5 fighters at the time.

Your opinion is shit.

This was my initial interaction with you. It is quite clear, concise, and simple to understand it's meaning. I was refuting your argument that Sylvia and Arlovski were not quality victories for Fedor... That is it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Proceeding from this you have went on about a dozen different tangents spanning from Hendo, to Strikeforce, to other peoples opinions that are neither yours nor mine, etc. Do you understand how conversation works you got damn imbecile? Every argument that has come out of your mouth within the past couple of pages is the literal definition of a strawman. You are arguing points that I have not made, nor have any intention of making. This shit is embarrassing for you.

 

[ippikiookami]

Agreed. JDS and Cain both aren't the GOATs of HW clearly, but they deserve to be mentioned. They both fell off hard, but shined bright for a short period of time.

I would be willing to say they were better in their prime than Barnett, Werdum, Arlovski, Couture. Coleman, Cro Cop, and probably Overeem, ever were. I don't think that's too wild to say and I believe it's true.

But they also had the benefit of "era" over all of those guys, even multiple generations.

I have Valasquez (Cain) on my list. JDS would be on the list, but I think Cain took his place there due to more and better quality wins (though I realize that's debatable)

 

[No Skill Gap]

This was my initial interaction with you. It is quite clear, concise, and simple to understand it's meaning. I was refuting your argument that Sylvia and Arlovski were not quality victories for Fedor... That is it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Proceeding from this you have went on about a dozen different tangents spanning from Hendo, to Strikeforce, to other peoples opinions that are neither you nor mine, etc. Do you understand how conversation works you got damn imbecile? Every argument that has come out of your mouth within the past couple of pages is the literal definition of a strawman. You are arguing points that I have not made, nor have any intention of making. This shit is embarrassing for you.

Why is it embarrassing for me Ben Shapiro?

Are we trying to talk about MMA and the best HWs of that sport here, or are you trying to win an internet argument centered around semantics?

I've already admitted to being partially wrong, wrong, maybe wrong, and completely wrong about the Arlovski and Sylvia wins, multiple times in this thread. Go take a look. I don't need to have a petty argument with someone who's clearly super biased and has a nostalgia boner for Pride. Yet here I am.

I still don't think I was fully wrong about those fights either. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. You simply posted some bullshit rankings of where they were at the time, yeah and what is the full context. What other HWs were there? What site were those rankings from? Were they even "good"?

Sylvia went on to be a washed bum after that single Fedor fight, doing nothing in MMA again. Being clearly washed. Arlovski went on to have a glass chin and a bad run. But prior to that both were on decent to good runs, although the context of Sylvia's health is being left out as well. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, I was wrong on some level to dismiss the wins outright. I still don't agree with you posting some arbitrary rankings, and I still think there's some valid evidence of what they did post-Fedor in each instance.

Thank you Ben for this elucidating debate.

 

[ippikiookami]

Agreed. JDS and Cain both aren't the GOATs of HW clearly, but they deserve to be mentioned. They both fell off hard, but shined bright for a short period of time.

I would be willing to say they were better in their prime than Barnett, Werdum, Arlovski, Couture. Coleman, Cro Cop, and probably Overeem, ever were. I don't think that's too wild to say and I believe it's true.

But they also had the benefit of "era" over all of those guys, even multiple generations.

I have Valasquez (Cain) on my list. JDS would be on the list, but I think Cain took his place there due to more and better quality wins (though I realize that's debatable)

 

[ippikiookami]

Cain is on my list. I think he deserves to be there more than JDS, and he was the top dog of the Cain/JDS era. That's my opinion

 

[basedgodfedor]

Fedor
Nog
Miocic
Werdum
JDS
Velasquez
Cro Cop
Overeem
Cormier
Barnett
Arlovski
Randy
Igor
Sylvia
Coleman

 

[HHJ]

I put Barnett in 2nd tier of the list in the OP

 

[LilNicky95]

4 Champs not including Rampage or Mir would be Sylvia, Arlovski, Coleman and Randleman.

I think you're memory might be a little shoddy here.

Fedor fought Sylvia coming off a title shot against Nog where he beat the hell out of Nog for 2.5 rounds until Nog pulled out a hail mary sub. Sylvia was only 3 fights removed from being UFC Champ, I'd argue that physically Fedor had slowed down more than Sylvia had.

Arlovski in the run up to the Fedor fight was in by far the best form of his career, his boxing was sharp from training with Freddie Roach and he was lighting fast for a HW, his streak at the time was 5 wins and was career best form including beat Werdum and KOing Nelson and Rothwell and he was pretty unanimously ranked as the #2 HW behind Fedor.

 

[LilNicky95]

Stipe has the best wins.
Fedor had the longest streak.
Ngannou and CroCop most feared.

You could make an argument for any of these tbh, maybe not Ngannou but he is shaping up to potentially be one in the future.

IMHO, it’s Miocic. beat Reem, JDS, Francis, Werdum and a comeback against Cormier. All in spectacular fashion!

Stipe had the best wins??

 

[ippikiookami]

I would have put Bas on the list if he had fought longer as a HW in either Pride or UFC (Pancrase's "slapping hands" shit doesn't cut it for me), had a decisive win over Randleman (he was on his back just love tapping Randleman's kidneys with his heels), and was a more natural heavyweight. Bas would have been a monster at LHW had he had a few more years in his career.

I don't put Hendo on the list because he didn't spend any significant part of his career at HW. Yes, he knocked out the GOAT, and probably could have beat at least a couple of the other people on the list, but I don't think anyone thinks of Hendo as a HW.

 

[frye666]

The point is that Fedor is magically in his prime when he beats Sylvia and Arlovski, and let's say they were both prime. But then he magically isn't in his prime during the Rogers-Werdum-Big Foot-Hendo stretch.

The timeline here runs from 2008 to 2011. The Rogers fight was only 6 months after the Arlovski fight, and the rest are within 1.5-2.5 years roughly of the Sylvia fight.

I realize you love Pride and Fedor, yeah we've had this debate before...I recall that at least. So I'm not going to change your mind. It's all good. And my stance is that Fedor is the GOAT at HW as it stands anyway. But yes I was wrong about Arlovski/Sylvia to some extent, maybe totally.

It is called basic math. A normal fighter has 8-10 years in his prime. Tops. Perhaps check this with every fighter out there and make you own conclusion based on averages, or don't. Then add in wear and tear. Aside from his 33 fights in his first 10 years, he also had 100's of other full contact fights. Nothing magical here if you have a semi working brain. Fedor was already out of his prime before Silvia. He was just still great. Hell, old man glass jawed Fedor is 8-2 in his last 10 fights and that list has rampage, sonnen, mir, rizzo, and monson on it.
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