Battles of posture + positioning:

[ssullivan80]

If any of you had a chance to watch the Orlando Salido vs. Mickey Garcia fight last night, it's probably the best example you could possibly find of how posture facilitates positioning, and therefore dictates the effectiveness of exchanges. It was really the perfect fight to watch after having read this thread. Mickey Garcia has never looked better IMO and Salido is no easy opponent, but Garcia controlled the positioning in the fight so well that Salido literally got abused.

 

[ssullivan80]

Then again i might have my hope too high for the internet.

and your hands to low for the ring............

Sorry, couldn't help myself.... Just kidding ya bro...... kind of......

Can someone explain the difference between posture and positioning? Seems like the same thing but I must be missing something. Thank you

In short, good posture facilitates good positioning. Go back and read through the thread again (sinister, yodave, and a few others), your question will be answered.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

and your hands to low for the ring............

Sorry, couldn't help myself.... Just kidding ya bro...... kind of......

*too

 

[sourdiesel209]

Shoulder/chin level is not too low to block high kicks. And you drop your hands lower than that.

jajaja! I know I do sometimes... but in boxing only sparring!!! And mostly to bait someone so I can counter him... Muay thai it would be a different story tho... just check out how Bisping got caught because he dropped his hands before the kick (maybe he was expecting a body kick or sumthing??)..

And wouldnt chin level count as hands up??

Anyways, should the correct stance take care of posture while punching? or is it something you should conciously drill until it becomes second nature?? because I sometimes catch myself with my chin up after throwing left hooks/straight rights when I thought it was down lol

 

[ssullivan80]

jajaja! I know I do sometimes... but in boxing only sparring!!! And mostly to bait someone so I can counter him... Muay thai it would be a different story tho... just check out how Bisping got caught because he dropped his hands before the kick (maybe he was expecting a body kick or sumthing??)..

And wouldnt chin level count as hands up??

Anyways, should the correct stance take care of posture while punching? or is it something you should conciously drill until it becomes second nature?? because I sometimes catch myself with my chin up after throwing left hooks/straight rights when I thought it was down lol

For the life of me I can't understand Michael Bisping's strategies in fights. Against Hendo, he circles left into Hendo's right hand...... Then against the SP Vitor he circles right, and sure enough, same result....... good night. I really don't get it, Bisping is a very good fighter and an all around great athlete, he really doesn't make a lot of mistakes........ Until it really "counts" (pun intended), at which point he makes such foolish mistakes........ eh....... who knows

That said, Vitor looked fantastic IMO. He did throw that kick solid to the body a couple times, and Bisping's "posture" left him reaching and trying to block or catch Vitors kicks with his arms, Vitor wisely recognized this and put one upside his head.......... again, this fight is another example of posture and positioning mistakes being so costly. Not nearly as good as an example as Salido vs. Garcia fight last night though (trying to keep with thread theme, as to not derail a thread with as much valuable insight as this one).

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Is it me or most of the modern fighters are so concern about hitting the other guy that they forget things like posture and positioning? It babbled me how things like this are left out.

 

[Discipulus]

For the life of me I can't understand Michael Bisping's strategies in fights. Against Hendo, he circles left into Hendo's right hand...... Then against the SP Vitor he circles right, and sure enough, same result....... good night. I really don't get it, Bisping is a very good fighter and an all around great athlete, he really doesn't make a lot of mistakes........ Until it really "counts" (pun intended), at which point he makes such foolish mistakes........ eh....... who knows

That said, Vitor looked fantastic IMO. He did throw that kick solid to the body a couple times, and Bisping's "posture" left him reaching and trying to block or catch Vitors kicks with his arms, Vitor wisely recognized this and put one upside his head.......... again, this fight is another example of posture and positioning mistakes being so costly. Not nearly as good as an example as Salido vs. Garcia fight last night though (trying to keep with thread theme, as to not derail a thread with as much valuable insight as this one).

I've been looking for it in fights since this thread got posted. Neither had particularly good posture, but Bisping was worse off.

 

[swamp_fist]

Interesting thread, especially for me since my upper back has a slight hunch to it naturally. It makes me hunch forward slightly, but not so far forward that I can't tuck my chin all the way in and still see my opponent beneath my eyebrows.

The strengths to my slightly forward lean is that my body is better blocked, my range is slightly increased, and when I fade back I'm still relatively upright since I'm starting from a more forward posture.

My fighting has improved since I've gone to this, but I've also made many other improvements, so it's hard to say it's helped me definitively.

Can a slight forward cant be used in moderation, or do the disadvantages simply outweigh the advantages in all cases?

***** Edit ****

What I'm calling a slight forward cant is very similar to what Jack Dempsey referred to as the "Semi Crouch" in his book.

 

[Zephyros]

Is it me or most of the modern fighters are so concern about hitting the other guy that they forget things like posture and positioning? It babbled me how things like this are left out.

Certainly the great modern fighters still utilize proper positioning, but in the pro's, you're in there with the elite. There's a million technical adjustments going on at once, and technical perfection cannot be present in every exchange or clash. It comes down to what you happen to be focusing on in the moment, whether it be figuring out patterns, tells, psychological assessment, whatever. That being said, Boxing principles dictate that the more technically sound you are, the better off you'll be, and it certainly should be applied more regularly, but it's rarely that ideal. The fighters who *are* able to do the right number of things all at once seamlessly in their style, however, become great.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Certainly the great modern fighters still utilize proper positioning, but in the pro's, you're in there with the elite. There's a million technical adjustments going on at once, and technical perfection cannot be present in every exchange or clash. It comes down to what you happen to be focusing on in the moment, whether it be figuring out patterns, tells, psychological assessment, whatever. That being said, Boxing principles dictate that the more technically sound you are, the better off you'll be, and it certainly should be applied more regularly, but it's rarely that ideal. The fighters who *are* able to do the right number of things all at once seamlessly in their style, however, become great.

Of course. But i think you need to be able to get yourself to a technical level where all the technical adjustments and exchanges happening inside the ring is minimized while maximize your opportunities to hurt the other guy, thus grabbing whatever advantages you can get before get into the ring. From what i've seen from some noticable guys in boxing and in MMA they often coasted by using their physicality and inate talents so much in the ring, instead of approaching their sport from a technical perspective first, which fail them in later life. Beside, wouldn't be technically adept will boost and accentuate your inate talents?

 

[SPMA]

Of course. But i think you need to be able to get yourself to a technical level where all the technical adjustments and exchanges happening inside the ring is minimized while maximize your opportunities to hurt the other guy, thus grabbing whatever advantages you can get before get into the ring. From what i've seen from some noticable guys in boxing and in MMA they often coasted by using their physicality and inate talents so much in the ring, instead of approaching their sport from a technical perspective first, which fail them in later life. Beside, wouldn't be technically adept will boost and accentuate your inate talents?

Agree 110%!

 

[nakmuay84]

what do you guys think about Petrosyan's stance/posture?
with weight on front foot, squared stance (MT like), hunched back, high hands, he's got the best footwork/positioning/defense/elusive skills in the game.




(just to say: what's good in kickboxing/MT may not be that good in boxing... and viceversa. Differents sports, different rules, different styles. A simple fact that someone here still don't understand)

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

what do you guys think about Petrosyan's stance/posture?
with weight on front foot, squared stance (MT like), hunched back, high hands, he's got the best footwork/positioning/defense/elusive skills in the game.



(just to say: what's good in kickboxing/MT may not be that good in boxing... and viceversa. Differents sports, different rules, different styles. A simple fact that someone here still don't understand)

Petrosyan's defense is more based on his head movement (which is, funnily enough, something originally from boxing that often deemed unsuitable for kickboxing/MT) and his sharp counterstriking ability (which often discourage guys to engage him, thus giving Petrosyan all the initiative he needs to chopping down his opponent - basically active defense using threats). That's probably why he never seemed to actually use his hands to block, but rather there to be ready to throw his straights punches. He does have better posture in his stance comparatively to most kickboxers out there though (just look at that thumbnails in the video with Kraus' posture vs Petrosyan's posture), which accentuate his defense even further.

 

[yodave]

what do you guys think about Petrosyan's stance/posture?
with weight on front foot, squared stance (MT like), hunched back, high hands, he's got the best footwork/positioning/defense/elusive skills in the game.




(just to say: what's good in kickboxing/MT may not be that good in boxing... and viceversa. Differents sports, different rules, different styles. A simple fact that someone here still don't understand)

you're right, they are not the same thing. The biggest difference is in kickboxing you have more range to deal with. Kickboxing requires you to be lighter on your feet and able to use your legs at any time to defend and attack. Your legs are always targets so you get never plant your feet for too long if at all.

this requires a stance that facilitates quick footwork and darting in and out. and not just for kicks but to for knees as well, totally different game.

what I noticed as well is his utilization of angles to kick and punch with, never standing in front of his opponent and utilizing different ranges very well, never letting his opponent set his feet for strikes.

Boxing ony has one range, punching range so you that's all you have to worry about, kickboxing has several ranges to deal with. In reality two kickboxers are never out of range of each others strikes, even when they are inside fighting.

the thing is too that because of the greater range you have to throw your attack from further out and this also impacts your punching because of the greater distance you have to travel to get to your opponent, and you always have to be mindful of his kicking range when you do this.

 

[nakmuay84]

That's probably why he never seemed to actually use his hands to block

false.
when he's not avoiding shots he's blocking them with gloves or forearms. Punches, and, of course, high kicks.
This is the way he explains his hands high guard on one of his seminars that you can find on youtube.
But he is no boxer, and his style (like the one of every top K1/MT fighter) is just for standup kickfighting and not the ultimate style for every striking art with every ruleset, as should be obvious.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

false.
when he's not avoiding shots he's blocking them with gloves or forearms. Punches, and, of course, high kicks.
This is the way he explains his hands high guard on one of his seminars that you can find on youtube.
But he is no boxer, and his style (like the one of every top K1/MT fighter) is just for standup kickfighting and not the ultimate style for every striking art with every ruleset, as should be obvious.

From the fights i've seen, his hands are mainly there for offense. It seemed to not be in his arsenal of active defense. Their usage for defense is pretty minimal and reflexive if anything, basically the last barrier of defense when his main means for defense is not there.

And what's with the last point anyway? That's rather obvious, don't you think?

 

[sourdiesel209]

I'd say Petrosyans defense is based on his positioning and control of distance.. How he counters ppl while backpedaling, is beautiful.. He always backs up in an angle, never straight back...

He has some pretty slick boxing, nice head movement (that he only uses when he needs to, when theres an incoming punch), nice straight left...

And he uses a high guard to block punches/kicks as his last layer of defense, positioning being the first... he doesnt stand as square as the thais tho..

 

[nakmuay84]

From the fights i've seen, his hands are mainly there for offense. It seemed to not be in his arsenal of active defense. Their usage for defense is pretty minimal and reflexive if anything, basically the last barrier of defense when his main means for defense is not there.

their usage for defense is important, because he's not avoiding every punch and every high kick. As you said, they're the last barrier.

And what's with the last point anyway? That's rather obvious, don't you think?

it should be obvious, but you were the one annoying the forum claiming that bladed-hands low-oldschoolboxingstance is the best for every fighting ruleset, also when low/high kicks are involved, in total contrast with reality and empirical experience (i've seen you blocking an high kick with the chin, because using the forearm is lame)

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

their usage for defense is important, because he's not avoiding every punch and every high kick. As you said, they're the last barrier.

it should be obvious, but you were the one annoying the forum claiming that bladed-hands low-oldschoolboxingstance is the best for every fighting ruleset, also when low/high kicks are involved, in total contrast with reality and empirical experience (i've seen you blocking an high kick with the chin, because using the forearm is lame)

Eh, i don't think i ever said that. I do, however advocate the old school boxing principals and stance around the forums because it is pretty applicable to any stand up scenario and rules because of its emphasis on controlling/maintain distance and positioning vs the sole use of hands for defense (which displayed nicely by Petrosyan here - one of his main weapons are his straights and he never actively handcuffs himself offensively by constantly use it as his main mean of defense). This is not to mention the kind of stance i'm using can also be found in Okinawan Karate (which is old school karate and the roots of all modern karate, surprise? Old school boxing and old school karate) so it is not entirely an only boxing thing. And i've personally applied it well in kickboxing scenario vs more experienced people.

As for the high kick, i think you just conviniently left out the whole story and context behind it. But let's not derail the thread, and if you want to argue further, do it via PM then.

 

[nakmuay84]

Eh, i don't think i ever said that. [...] This is not to mention the kind of stance i'm using can also be found in Okinawan Karate (which is old school karate and the roots of all modern karate, surprise? Old school boxing and old school karate) so it is not entirely an only boxing thing. And i've personally applied it well in kickboxing scenario vs more experienced people.

you said that in the "hands up thread", where you posted some karate shotokan guy pic to prove your point, forgetting that in shotokan rules there are NO low kicks, that's why kyokushin guys have a more squared stance. (by the way, i like that old school boxing stance and his principles as sinister explained them...i didn't know it but now i think i'd like to learn it. But i'm not using it for sumo, muay thai or soccer)

As for the high kick, i think you just conviniently left out the whole story and context behind it. But let's not derail the thread, and if you want to argue further, do it via PM then.

i've read the "whole story". so?
you were the one out of context, sparring against KK guys in their rules like it was a boxing match, as if your boxing stance could fit every ruleset.
And i think this is thread related, because teach us a lesson: every stance/style/posture has a "why" and it's related to his context.
The hunched front-weighted posture of Petrosyan works GOOD in his context. There is not an "absolute-correct-form" for every sport.