Battles of posture + positioning:

[yodave]

so your saying this leads to shoulder injury, I've never heard this before, could you elaborate further?

 

[Sinister]

Look at Kell Brook's shoulder in the photo I posted. All the pressure and weight of the punch is in the rotator cuff. That's not a good place for it to be.

 

[yodave]

yeah I see what you are saying there. Do you feel like modern boxing defense puts strain on the shoulders?

Like I said earlier I experimented with a more slanted stance and I feel like it gives me extra protection so I do find it very interesting.

 

[Centaur]

Look at Kell Brook's shoulder in the photo I posted. All the pressure and weight of the punch is in the rotator cuff. That's not a good place for it to be.

That's how I injured my mine (and a few others I know did the same).

 

[orion78]

I disagree on the notion that posture isn't important. Posture is a major part of a fighter's stance. The better the posture, the better the stance is. A fighter's stance is a fundamental and crucial part of a fighter because it is one of the factor that determine how well a fighter do in the ring/cage as it affects how well he move, how well he punch, how well they defend themselves....so on and so forth. Two advantages i can pulled off from the top of my head that fighters benefits from having a good posture is minimized openings and striking.

With back straight, chin down, chest up, you gonna have a much better time putting your chin down, thus protect it better (and as Sinister pointed out earlier, having a bad posture can put strain on your neck, making it much harder to protect your chin and make it a very noticable vulnerability). Good posture also stabilized the head, and make most of the blows coming its way to become glancing blows, thus minimized the damage a fighter can receive in a match.

Now for striking, having chest up chin down back straight allowed you to put more leverage into your strikes, thus making it harder and more efficient when you have to throw them. It is like takedown in wrestling where one of the important details in any takedown is having your back straight in order to maximize your leverage when you go for one.

As for some fighters who have bad posture, yes they can be champ, but they have to use other things to compensate for it. One example of this is Antonio Margarito. His back is generally curved and his shoulder is slouched forward when he fight. But he compensated for it via his chin, that Mexican-style aggression (take one to get one) and maybe his loaded gloves too :icon_chee

Now compare that posture with Bernard Hopkins, who have the perfect posture:

Actually if you read KS's post, then what youre saying, it doesnt align very much. He does acknowledge the difference in Yelle's and Pagliuso's posture. Hes just saying the difference is in styles ("traditional boxing style vs Karate, which inherently should have good posture, and Im saying so should Boxing, and that Yelle is not Boxing). However, we're talking about why so and so techniques work. Why a guy is in poor position after executing an attack, precisely what is "the right time, and the right place." Posture, within your stance, simply minimizes the openings for the opposition. It doesnt eliminate them. Sure, a guy can be a champ with poor posture, but the exceptions to a rule do not negate its existence.

Perhaps I read KS overall point wrong, I misinterperted his last sentence. Still I don't see the posture being the factor in either of those fights.

Also to clarify to the two others, I'm not saying posture is not important and yes I think posture can make timing, distancing, and power more efficient and some people can gain power with different tweeks and technique. Still I don't see either mans posture in these fights as so far off that it was the issue, I think other factors were more of the cause.

Also Sinister, I agree a fundamental good posture saves you from damage to openings on the shots you didn't see coming or not expect (It's one reason I pretty much feel hands up is a must in any fighting style once your in punching range or up against a quick kicker, you can get away with lower hands at a distance). Interestingly enough the Karate guy in that fight seemed to have a more open guard than the guy who lost.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Perhaps I read KS overall point wrong, I misinterperted his last sentence. Still I don't see the posture being the factor in either of those fights.

Also to clarify to the two others, I'm not saying posture is not important and yes I think posture can make timing, distancing, and power more efficient and some people can gain power with different tweeks and technique. Still I don't see either mans posture in these fights as so far off that it was the issue, I think other factors were more of the cause.

Also Sinister, I agree a fundamental good posture saves you from damage to openings on the shots you didn't see coming or not expect (It's one reason I pretty much feel hands up is a must in any fighting style once your in punching range or up against a quick kicker, you can get away with lower hands at a distance). Interestingly enough the Karate guy in that fight seemed to have a more open guard than the guy who lost.

It depends on your point of view. However, as you agreed above, posture can help with others factors in fighting. But often it is a subtle (but visible to trained eyes) things that helped to accentuate other things that is more noticable, which is why i think you thought that in those two fights posture wasnt the main factor. It is there, and played a large role behind the scenes of the fights.

As for the hands up....It is depends on what kind of hands up are we talking about. If i read your post correctly, it is for defense (ie high guard) yes? Then i soundly disagree on that. Hands up for me means that the hands are up to threaten the opponents, defense will be mainly taking care by distance, posture, positioning and footworks.

 

[sourdiesel209]

It depends on your point of view. However, as you agreed above, posture can help with others factors in fighting. But often it is a subtle (but visible to trained eyes) things that helped to accentuate other things that is more noticable, which is why i think you thought that in those two fights posture wasnt the main factor. It is there, and played a large role behind the scenes of the fights.

As for the hands up....It is depends on what kind of hands up are we talking about. If i read your post correctly, it is for defense (ie high guard) yes? Then i soundly disagree on that. Hands up for me means that the hands are up to threaten the opponents, defense will be mainly taking care by distance, posture, positioning and footworks.

Hes not talking about boxing only tho... the only way to defend high kicks is with your hands up to block them, and they are pretty long range.. you should know this by now lol... so in kickboxing, you need your hands up for defense sometimes (ive seen some thais like Samart put their hands down but only when theyre out of kicking range)

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Hes not talking about boxing only tho... the only way to defend high kicks is with your hands up to block them, and they are pretty long range.. you should know this by now lol... so in kickboxing, you need your hands up for defense sometimes (ive seen some thais like Samart put their hands down but only when theyre out of kicking range)

Since when having hands up is the ONLY way to defend high kicks anyway? What about stepping out of range? Fade away? Or continuously using footworks to circle around opponent and not letting them plant their feet for a headkick? All of those tactics that nullify or evasive are soundly better than having to eat a hard kick with your forearm and risking injury. Of course, when things go south, having the hands up in a wing block is the last resort. But it is the last resort if all other things had failed.

 

[yodave]

Since when having hands up is the ONLY way to defend high kicks anyway? What about stepping out of range? Fade away? Or continuously using footworks to circle around opponent and not letting them plant their feet for a headkick? All of those tactics that nullify or evasive are soundly better than having to eat a hard kick with your forearm and risking injury. Of course, when things go south, having the hands up in a wing block is the last resort. But it is the last resort if all other things had failed.

I believe you should have your hands up and your shoulders up at all times because this offers much more protection. And things happen too fast, you can't get a arm or a shoulder up when you need it, it needs to already be there beforehand or its not already too late if you just bring it up when you need it.

Look at all of those pictures, look at where the hands and shouders and chin of those guys are, no wonder they get hit, no protection whatsover.

Look at a guy like marquez, maywheater, hopkins, they are always in position to block a shot, that's why they have amazing defense and almost never get hurt.

Martinez never let chazez jr get set either but because his hands were down, he almost got knocked out because he was relying on speed (footwork etc) and head movement and couldn't block when he needed to, disciplined fighters don't have this problem. if your hands are down and you make one single mistake it can be over, you can dominate the whole fight and lose because you made one bad move, this is not how somebody should fight.

and old school boxers block all the time, look at maywheater, james toney, hopkins, look at their fights and see how many times they block punches.

 

[sourdiesel209]

Since when having hands up is the ONLY way to defend high kicks anyway? What about stepping out of range? Fade away? Or continuously using footworks to circle around opponent and not letting them plant their feet for a headkick? All of those tactics that nullify or evasive are soundly better than having to eat a hard kick with your forearm and risking injury. Of course, when things go south, having the hands up in a wing block is the last resort. But it is the last resort if all other things had failed.

well fading away is something thats incredible hard to do, and if you fail you eat a shin to the head flush... and you cant rely on it as a main means of defense... stepping out of range means you will be waaay on the outside, all the time... the thais fight a certain way for a reason... you dont see them dancing around dodging kicks like in the matrix right??

If your trying to circle around the kicks, guess what, he has two legs!!! so your kinda circling into his other leg too..

And its a double forearm block, a wing block may not be enough... and lol if you think thats risking injury... ever heard about conditioning? Or your not going to check kicks now because you dont wanna risk breaking your shin lol

Even Sinister said you can technically use positioning, distance, posture, etc. with your hands up as well... to faciliate offense I know, but its different with kicks involved...

 

[PeterPain]

Jean Pascal blew his shoulder punching the cables...
Posture is not just for show.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I believe you should have your hands up and your shoulders up at all times because this offers much more protection. And things happen too fast, you can't get a arm or a shoulder up when you need it, it needs to already be there beforehand or its not already too late if you just bring it up when you need it.

Look at all of those pictures, look at where the hands and shouders and chin of those guys are, no wonder they get hit, no protection whatsover.

Look at a guy like marquez, maywheater, hopkins, they are always in position to block a shot, that's why they have amazing defense and almost never get hurt.

Martinez never let chazez jr get set either but because his hands were down, he almost got knocked out because he was relying on speed (footwork etc) and head movement and couldn't block when he needed to, disciplined fighters don't have this problem. if your hands are down and you make one single mistake it can be over, you can dominate the whole fight and lose because you made one bad move, this is not how somebody should fight.

and old school boxers block all the time, look at maywheater, james toney, hopkins, look at their fights and see how many times they block punches.

C'mon now, i never said i fight with my hands on my waist or anything. My hands may be comparatively low, but it is in good position to parry/block punches when it needed to. This is like the millionth time i have to clarify about this.

well fading away is something thats incredible hard to do, and if you fail you eat a shin to the head flush... and you cant rely on it as a main means of defense... stepping out of range means you will be waaay on the outside, all the time... the thais fight a certain way for a reason... you dont see them dancing around dodging kicks like in the matrix right??

If your trying to circle around the kicks, guess what, he has two legs!!! so your kinda circling into his other leg too..

And its a double forearm block, a wing block may not be enough... and lol if you think thats risking injury... ever heard about conditioning? Or your not going to check kicks now because you dont wanna risk breaking your shin lol

Even Sinister said you can technically use positioning, distance, posture, etc. with your hands up as well... to faciliate offense I know, but its different with kicks involved...

Funny because you are the one that said the only way to defend against high kicks are hands up...Which is basically relying on it as the main mean of defense. Hmmm. I'm sure nobody can exploit that.

Those tactics i presented are options to take and mix. I never said you have to use only one of them. In a kickboxing/muay thai context it is always best to mix it up to minimize your openings. This is not to mention that all 3 tactics i mentioned can be use in conjunction pretty well.

And lol at your reasoning of the weakness of circling around opp. Yeah, like i'm gonna circle in one direction and one speed to let him take notice and catch me lol

For the conditioning.....please ask Gokhan Saki's broken arm in the 2010 K1 World Grandprix Final about it. Conditioning make it tougher and reduce the chance of breaking, not make it into an invincibility shield that can safely block everything.

 

[sourdiesel209]

C'mon now, i never said i fight with my hands on my waist or anything. My hands may be comparatively low, but it is in good position to parry/block punches when it needed to. This is like the millionth time i have to clarify about this.



Funny because you are the one that said the only way to defend against high kicks are hands up...Which is basically relying on it as the main mean of defense. Hmmm. I'm sure nobody can exploit that.

Those tactics i presented are options to take and mix. I never said you have to use only one of them. In a kickboxing/muay thai context it is always best to mix it up to minimize your openings. This is not to mention that all 3 tactics i mentioned can be use in conjunction pretty well.

And lol at your reasoning of the weakness of circling around opp. Yeah, like i'm gonna circle in one direction and one speed to let him take notice and catch me lol

For the conditioning.....please ask Gokhan Saki's broken arm in the 2010 K1 World Grandprix Final about it. Conditioning make it tougher and reduce the chance of breaking, not make it into an invincibility shield that can safely block everything.

Well against a good kicker you cant have the luxury of having your hands down or he will catch you with a headkick eventually.. of course you can mix it with fades, etc. but also with blocks, especially if you want to enter punching range...

I dunno man, go ahead try it in kickboxing/kyokushin sparring you'll see you cant just matrix around every kick, even moreso if your planning on attacking

Theres really noone that fights with his hands low in muay thai/kick boxing, now in mma with takedowns its a different story..

btw you should always circle with the hand up on the side your circling into, even with boxing, or you will eat hooks/kicks when they cut off the ring

and omg man, are you really afraid your gonna break your arm?? you got brittle bones or sumthing??? Its like 1 in a million odds of it happening... Ill take those odds anyday... I could show you the gif of that dude breaking his leg when the other dude checked his kick... now your not gonna leg kick ppl anymore?

 

[yodave]

I want to clarify what I mean here, as everybody knows sinister is advising nuclearlandmine and teaching him the style of boxing that was taught to him by mike McCallum.

I pulled up this fight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNSHdYxsqV0

Between mike McCmallum and james toney. In this fight you can see two fighters that use a very different defensive system than whats taught at most boxing gyms . But they both block punches, just like every other fighter so this is where a lot of people get confused as to what is being said.

I asked sinister a couple of questions and 100% understood what he said so I know I am on the same page as him. I don't really consider mike's style as having this hands down approach. He is ready to block at all times and he is always in position to do this.

Nuclearlandmine, if everybody understood that this is how you want to fight, like mike, I think everybody would agree its a great style but I think people just don't understand what you are saying because the internet has a way of making things difficult to understand sometimes.

 

[yodave]

Well against a good kicker you cant have the luxury of having your hands down or he will catch you with a headkick eventually.. of course you can mix it with fades, etc. but also with blocks, especially if you want to enter punching range...

I dunno man, go ahead try it in kickboxing/kyokushin sparring you'll see you cant just matrix around every kick, even moreso if your planning on attacking

Theres really noone that fights with his hands low in muay thai/kick boxing, now in mma with takedowns its a different story..

and omg man, are you really afraid your gonna break your arm?? you got brittle bones or sumthing??? Its like 1 in a million odds of it happening... Ill take those odds anyday... I could show you the gif of that dude breaking his leg when the other dude checked his kick... now your not gonna leg kick ppl anymore?

But this is the thing, he is following mike mccallum's style taught to sinister, and he mike doesn't have a hands down style, he is ready to block any strikes that get throught. its just a system that relies on a combination of using a bladed stance, using that lead shoulder ,the back hand and sometimes the lead hand to block strikes.

ps: im watching that fight I linked to in my previous post, and I see how mike uses his lead shoulder and his back hand to block his head and his front arm blocks his front body, this looks similar to all the other old school boxers, so really I do understand what sinister is trying to teach here looking at this fight. this is all so he blocks strikes from any angles at all times.

 

[shs101]

Great thread and for sure an aspect of fighting that overlooked. But what is posturing exactly? Ie is it JUST chest up back straight while fighting? Or..? Can someone explain? Anyone have video of any modern day current boxers that fight with good posturing? Thank you

 

[ssullivan80]

Since when having hands up is the ONLY way to defend high kicks anyway? What about stepping out of range? Fade away? Or continuously using footworks to circle around opponent and not letting them plant their feet for a headkick? All of those tactics that nullify or evasive are soundly better than having to eat a hard kick with your forearm and risking injury. Of course, when things go south, having the hands up in a wing block is the last resort. But it is the last resort if all other things had failed.

Honestly brotha, this strategy is likely to have your head taken off. Stepping out of range, fading, pulling back are all ways of defending a high kick, sure. But against a good kicker that ain't gonna work very often and you'll end up with a shin across your jaw. A good high kicker can make adjustments mid-kick, to both the trajectory and range of the kick. A simple lean back, crunch over hips, delayed pivot, etc and a good kicker can easily make those minor adjustments mid kick. I assure you, any potential risk you think your forearm may endure is negligible, it's your head you need be concerned with. Additionally, you really shouldn't be taking the impact of a high kick on your forearms. You want to absorb the majority of the force with your shoulder, which is actually done by leaning into the kick and keeping your arms in tight/close to your body. If your trying to block high kicks by separating your arms from your body, you very well could end up with a broken arm and a good kicker will just kick right through those outstretched arms.

Not to get off topic in this thread, as it is really an excellent topic. That said, proper posture and positioning is how you defend a high kick. Just as sinister has shown, in the pics, chin down chest up arms in close to body...... this same principle applies to defending a high kick. If you roll your shoulders forward and sink your chest in, then you will be forced into absorbing those high kicks with just your arms vs. your shoulders and entire upper body.

 

[yodave]

Great thread and for sure an aspect of fighting that overlooked. But what is posturing exactly? Ie is it JUST chest up back straight while fighting? Or..? Can someone explain? Anyone have video of any modern day current boxers that fight with good posturing? Thank you

Posturing or posture is how you move your body at all times, its how you throw a punch, its how your body is positioned when you throw a strike, its how you are positioned when you execute techniques and how you execute those techniques.

I think marquez comes to mind for somebody who has a good modern day stance because he always has his chin down, hands up and shoulders up, and he throws with tight compact technique (this is basically modern boxing philosophy) hands up so you can throw punches while defending with them at the same time, basically occupying that middle lane.

off of memory I think Oscar de la hoya has good posture as well for the same reason and he also has that square modern boxing style.

both of these guys posture when they punch allows them to throw with great power and speed even thought they still keep that tight defense, this is because of that great posture that they can do that, they don't have to overcommit to attacks and that's the difference, it allows for great counter attacking opportunities against fighters with lesser posture.

 

[ssullivan80]

Posturing or posture is how you move your body at all times, its how you throw a punch, its how your body is positioned when you throw a strike, its how you are positioned when you execute techniques and how you execute those techniques.

I think marquez comes to mind for somebody who has a good modern day stance because he always has his chin down, hands up and shoulders up, and he throws with tight compact technique (this is basically modern boxing philosophy) hands up so you can throw punches while defending with them at the same time, basically occupying that middle lane.

off of memory I think Oscar de la hoya has good posture as well for the same reason and he also has that square modern boxing style.

both of these guys posture when they punch allows them to throw with great power and speed even thought they still keep that tight defense, this is because of that great posture that they can do that, they don't have to overcommit to attacks and that's the difference, it allows for great counter attacking opportunities against fighters with lesser posture.

Well said.

I do believe Marquez is a great example of ideal posture, other than the fact he tends to carry a little to much of his weight on his front foot at times. Nonetheless, he is as technically refined a fighter as there is. De La Hoya is also a great example, as is Saul Alvarez IMO.

One of things that's seemingly more apparent in Eastern European fighters is that they typically have better posture than the American fighters. I see this being more apparent in the amateur and olympic fighters. Not really sure why this is, or if there is a correlation to the way boxing is taught/coached in Eastern Europe that puts more emphasis on posture than US gyms. Same correlation could be made with Mexican trained fighters, and maybe even a better example than EU. It'd be interesting to hear sinister's take on why this is (or anyone else who could elaborate).

 

[Wow Exuberant**]

thanks Sinister, I've have really bad rotar cuffs and now realise why, I'm very bad for extending my shoulder out of my socket on my left hook, and now its fucked.


Also Wineland vs Picket is a good example of the chest up chin down posture AFAIK