Battles of posture + positioning:

[Sinister]

It's all good, but it's important to those of us who instruct to distinguish the difference. What GSP DOES can be learned, not particularly his speed. But his positioning facilitates that speed being useful to him. Like in wrestling, strong guys being a dime a dozen, the same is true for fast guys in striking Arts. Eventually everyone is at the very least, quicker than you think until you're in there with them.

But the key phrase I mentioned was putting him in position. That's what has to be done, and in most of his fights but one (Serra) he makes people have to work EXTREMELY hard to land. In the case of the first bout with Serra, he did all the work FOR Matt.

 

[PeterPain]

But this is about WHY Ben leaned forward. Not just that he did. Ben's posture is pretty atrocious. Every time he punches his shoulders come too far forward and it creates a pull on his neck. Neck is pulled, head comes up. He ends up backwards, chest down and chin up. Due to there not having been any effective correction or strengthening of that aspect of his physiology, he'll ALWAYS have that problem. What this meant against Joey is that he had TWO areas of attack, from underneath using his own positioning, or over the top due to Ben's head coming up. And he took good advantage of BOTH.

OMG just had a flash,
Because his shoulder is pulled away from his chest when he punch, it could be dislocated easy.
It hurts like a mother... I think I've drop someone like that awhile aggo.
Kick his shoulder as he was punching me.

 

[KarateStylist]

But this is about WHY Ben leaned forward. Not just that he did. Ben's posture is pretty atrocious. Every time he punches his shoulders come too far forward and it creates a pull on his neck. Neck is pulled, head comes up. He ends up backwards, chest down and chin up. Due to there not having been any effective correction or strengthening of that aspect of his physiology, he'll ALWAYS have that problem. What this meant against Joey is that he had TWO areas of attack, from underneath using his own positioning, or over the top due to Ben's head coming up. And he took good advantage of BOTH.

^^^ You're the guy with the extremely sharp pencil here.... and it's really hard for me to see the fine line you're drawing.... not disputing it's not there....

Yellin's "game," through my eyes suffers from some fundamental weaknesses.... and since this is K-1, to me in it's in the general boxing style....

1. Yellin's striking by it's self appears competent; yet diluted by his reliance on aggression.... the "Fierce Red-Belt Syndrome...."

2. Yellin is no doubt a killer of focus mitts. It's when the 'karate guy' strikes back accurately--Yellin is thrown for a loss....

To the general complaint you're making re Yellin's 'bad posture,' the traditional karate practitioner's upright torso has none of that....

KarateStylist

 

[Sinister]

OMG just had a flash,
Because his shoulder is pulled away from his chest when he punch, it could be dislocated easy.
It hurts like a mother... I think I've drop someone like that awhile aggo.
Kick his shoulder as he was punching me.

Yes, when his shoulder comes forward, ALL of the pressure is on the rotator cuff, which is very weak by nature.

^^^ You're the guy with the extremely sharp pencil here.... and it's really hard for me to see the fine line you're drawing.... not disputing it's not there....

Yellin's "game," through my eyes suffers from some fundamental weaknesses.... and since this is K-1, to me in it's in the general boxing style....

1. Yellin's striking by it's self appears competent; yet diluted by his reliance on aggression.... the "Fierce Red-Belt Syndrome...."

2. Yellin is no doubt a killer of focus mitts. It's when the 'karate guy' strikes back accurately--Yellin is thrown for a loss....

To the general complaint you're making re Yellin's 'bad posture,' the traditional karate practitioner's upright torso has none of that....

KarateStylist

I'm not sure what you mean by "general boxing style"...because there's good boxing and poor boxing. What Ben is doing is punching, or poor boxing. Not good boxing. A competent coach should have addressed that, regardless of the discipline. So yes, he relies on aggression, but that's just a product of it being the main thing he has.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Sometimes Kamegai loses his posture and positioning a fair bit, but overall compare to the other guy he had great posture and positioning. Which i think is why he is able to kick Hector Munoz like a mule throughout their fight.

And i want to fight like him too.....such a crisp, technical fighter.

 

[orion78]

^^^ You're the guy with the extremely sharp pencil here.... and it's really hard for me to see the fine line you're drawing.... not disputing it's not there....

Yellin's "game," through my eyes suffers from some fundamental weaknesses.... and since this is K-1, to me in it's in the general boxing style....

1. Yellin's striking by it's self appears competent; yet diluted by his reliance on aggression.... the "Fierce Red-Belt Syndrome...."

2. Yellin is no doubt a killer of focus mitts. It's when the 'karate guy' strikes back accurately--Yellin is thrown for a loss....

To the general complaint you're making re Yellin's 'bad posture,' the traditional karate practitioner's upright torso has none of that....

KarateStylist

Hmm maybe you know a little more than I give you credit for, I agree with Stylist for once. In fact I'd go as far as to say the first two video's posted on this thread have nothing to do with posture (positioning yes if we are using that to mean distance and timing). The Karate guy in the first one had poor mechanics in my eyes and lead with his head in a lot of his punches, and leaned unneccesarily forward while dipping punches (still worked for him!), he was just able to place his punches at the right time in the right place.

In the second video the asian guy Kubo seemed to have more size, longer reach, more relaxed, better timing, better control of distance, and his posture while upright didn't seem to be the factor.

That said its a fascinating topic, one in which I'll mull over while looking at fights in the future since it seems to have some potential truth in it. But I still question how important the posture distinction is, over say timing, distance, fight smarts (understanding your opponent and adjusting accordingly), power, speed, because in my experience and quick reflection of fights and fighters it seems you can be a champ while not having that traditional chin down, chest up posture....

 

[Sinister]

Hmm maybe you know a little more than I give you credit for, I agree with Stylist for once. In fact I'd go as far as to say the first two video's posted on this thread have nothing to do with posture (positioning yes if we are using that to mean distance and timing). The Karate guy in the first one had poor mechanics in my eyes and lead with his head in a lot of his punches, and leaned unneccesarily forward while dipping punches (still worked for him!), he was just able to place his punches at the right time in the right place.

In the second video the asian guy Kubo seemed to have more size, longer reach, more relaxed, better timing, better control of distance, and his posture while upright didn't seem to be the factor.

That said its a fascinating topic, one in which I'll mull over while looking at fights in the future since it seems to have some potential truth in it. But I still question how important the posture distinction is, over say timing, distance, fight smarts (understanding your opponent and adjusting accordingly), power, speed, because in my experience and quick reflection of fights and fighters it seems you can be a champ while not having that traditional chin down, chest up posture....

Actually if you read KS's post, then what youre saying, it doesnt align very much. He does acknowledge the difference in Yelle's and Pagliuso's posture. Hes just saying the difference is in styles ("traditional boxing style vs Karate, which inherently should have good posture, and Im saying so should Boxing, and that Yelle is not Boxing). However, we're talking about why so and so techniques work. Why a guy is in poor position after executing an attack, precisely what is "the right time, and the right place." Posture, within your stance, simply minimizes the openings for the opposition. It doesnt eliminate them. Sure, a guy can be a champ with poor posture, but the exceptions to a rule do not negate its existence.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Hmm maybe you know a little more than I give you credit for, I agree with Stylist for once. In fact I'd go as far as to say the first two video's posted on this thread have nothing to do with posture (positioning yes if we are using that to mean distance and timing). The Karate guy in the first one had poor mechanics in my eyes and lead with his head in a lot of his punches, and leaned unneccesarily forward while dipping punches (still worked for him!), he was just able to place his punches at the right time in the right place.

In the second video the asian guy Kubo seemed to have more size, longer reach, more relaxed, better timing, better control of distance, and his posture while upright didn't seem to be the factor.

That said its a fascinating topic, one in which I'll mull over while looking at fights in the future since it seems to have some potential truth in it. But I still question how important the posture distinction is, over say timing, distance, fight smarts (understanding your opponent and adjusting accordingly), power, speed, because in my experience and quick reflection of fights and fighters it seems you can be a champ while not having that traditional chin down, chest up posture....

I disagree on the notion that posture isn't important. Posture is a major part of a fighter's stance. The better the posture, the better the stance is. A fighter's stance is a fundamental and crucial part of a fighter because it is one of the factor that determine how well a fighter do in the ring/cage as it affects how well he move, how well he punch, how well they defend themselves....so on and so forth. Two advantages i can pulled off from the top of my head that fighters benefits from having a good posture is minimized openings and striking.

With back straight, chin down, chest up, you gonna have a much better time putting your chin down, thus protect it better (and as Sinister pointed out earlier, having a bad posture can put strain on your neck, making it much harder to protect your chin and make it a very noticable vulnerability). Good posture also stabilized the head, and make most of the blows coming its way to become glancing blows, thus minimized the damage a fighter can receive in a match.

Now for striking, having chest up chin down back straight allowed you to put more leverage into your strikes, thus making it harder and more efficient when you have to throw them. It is like takedown in wrestling where one of the important details in any takedown is having your back straight in order to maximize your leverage when you go for one.

As for some fighters who have bad posture, yes they can be champ, but they have to use other things to compensate for it. One example of this is Antonio Margarito. His back is generally curved and his shoulder is slouched forward when he fight. But he compensated for it via his chin, that Mexican-style aggression (take one to get one) and maybe his loaded gloves too :icon_chee

Now compare that posture with Bernard Hopkins, who have the perfect posture:

 

[jensen34]

I'm trying to get what you guys are saying about shoulder's forward, but does anyone have any still images of what you're talking about?

How the heck would one not have their shoulder forward when throwing a punch or is it more of a slight difference between forward and too far forward?

 

[Discipulus]

Hmm maybe you know a little more than I give you credit for, I agree with Stylist for once. In fact I'd go as far as to say the first two video's posted on this thread have nothing to do with posture (positioning yes if we are using that to mean distance and timing). The Karate guy in the first one had poor mechanics in my eyes and lead with his head in a lot of his punches, and leaned unneccesarily forward while dipping punches (still worked for him!), he was just able to place his punches at the right time in the right place.

In the second video the asian guy Kubo seemed to have more size, longer reach, more relaxed, better timing, better control of distance, and his posture while upright didn't seem to be the factor.

That said its a fascinating topic, one in which I'll mull over while looking at fights in the future since it seems to have some potential truth in it. But I still question how important the posture distinction is, over say timing, distance, fight smarts (understanding your opponent and adjusting accordingly), power, speed, because in my experience and quick reflection of fights and fighters it seems you can be a champ while not having that traditional chin down, chest up posture....

Sure, Kubo has more reach. And that's actually not the best fight. I suppose it isn't one in which posture alone was the difference, because Kubo pretty easily outclassed that guy. It's hard to find Kubo's recent fights on Youtube.

Here's a better example in old school Muay Thai fighter Vicharnnoi.



What I don't think you understand is that your posture is an inherent part of your sense of timing, distance. It affects your ability to adjust to your opponent and your power. The only thing I can't imagine that proper posture helps is speed. Why would you ignore a helpful aspect of fighting just because some have been successful without it? Take as many advantages as you can get.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I'm trying to get what you guys are saying about shoulder's forward, but does anyone have any still images of what you're talking about?

How the heck would one not have their shoulder forward when throwing a punch or is it more of a slight difference between forward and too far forward?

Try to get your back straight chest up chin down with your shoulders slouch forward. It is impossible isn't it? Because when all of that aligned your shoulders cannot slouch forward. Now if your spine is bend, your chest is down, then you can get your shoulder slouch forward. But that's not an optimal posture to take because it compromised everything.

As for throwing a punch, if you throw punches correctly with your elevation drop and your posture correct, then the shoulder will AUTOMATICALLY come up by itself with your chin beneath it for protection. The neat thing is that because it is natural so there's no chance of having any shoulder-ralated injury such as rotator cuff, for example.

 

[sourdiesel209]

I'd say the hard part is mantaining good posture while punching... Ive seen too many times in training dudes with their chin down in their boxing stance, all good, but as soon as they start punching something, chin goes up in the air..

especially when jabbing, if you jab wih your chin up your just waiting for an overhand right counter... I try to touch my shoulder with my chin when throwing straight punches to get that ingrained in muscle memory...

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

That's because their posture is not optimal enough for them to keep their chin down, which caused a strain on the back of the neck, and of course, lead to chin up in the air.

As for the shoulder, sound like you are forcing in instead of actually let it happen by its own. This is not to mention the risk of shoulder injury if you are forcing in too much.

 

[ssullivan80]

The only thing I can't imagine that proper posture helps is speed. Why would you ignore a helpful aspect of fighting just because some have been successful without it? Take as many advantages as you can get.

You'd be surprised. "speed" is a loosely defined term in striking arts. Many fighters don't appear to be "fast", largely due to their style of fighting or approach to engaging in their offense. This is easily observed in the transition many fighters make from Ammy to pro. Often, they appear much faster as an ammy than they do as a pro. IMO a big reason for this is that in the pros it's more about "effectiveness" of your shots vs. in ammy it's "volume" of your shots. The toughest transition for an ammy fighter coming into the pros is the positioning battle and learning to be judicious with their speed and not rely on it. It's better IMO to be very fast, yet not to appear "very fast". That's done by understanding positioning in the ring.

That said, effective shot's have more to do with positioning. A fighter who understands positioning will seem much faster. One of the remarks constantly made about Bernard Hopkins or Vitali Klitchko is that they are deceivingly fast. But it's there understanding of controlling positioning and posture far more than it is actual "speed". Look at a guy like Amir Khan, he's about as fast as they come. But he get's himself in trouble with fighters who are far slower because he get's out of position. Bernard does the opposite, he takes a fast fighter and nullifies his speed using positioning. Andre Ward is another excellent example, look what he did with Dawson, who's notably and widely considered very "fast". In short, being in the right position can make a moderately fast guy seem like a "lighting fast" guy.

 

[Sinister]

I'm trying to get what you guys are saying about shoulder's forward, but does anyone have any still images of what you're talking about?

How the heck would one not have their shoulder forward when throwing a punch or is it more of a slight difference between forward and too far forward?

For as good as Kell Brook is on paper, this is poor posture during a punch:

Chest down, chin up, shoulder comes forward out of the socket (creating MUCH pressure on the rotator cuff). He's just very fortunate the opponent is in a terrible position to do anything about it. But if he were baited into throwing that hook, he can be countered underneath, over the top, or if he misses, he'd have to react very quickly from a poor position. Compare that to this:

Note Marquez's posture. Chin down, chest up. Even though he likely got hit there, his positioning allows him to endure punches. And if he does endure the punch, he's in a very good position to throw the right hand. There's a reason he NEVER has been knocked out. Here's another punch, same principal:

And in the above one, notice his shoulders. Marquez always had very good posture, his shoulders stay in the socket, even on circular punches. He hardly ever extends his punches overmuch.

For the record, Casamayor also has good posture, and Pacquiao's improved very much over time with Roach. But both of them still got knocked out in those fights by Marquez. Whose positioning through the course of a fight usually improves at a geometric rate.

 

[KarateStylist]

1.Actually if you read KS's post, then what youre saying, it doesnt align very much. He does acknowledge the difference in Yelle's and Pagliuso's posture. Hes just saying the difference is in styles ("traditional boxing style vs Karate, which inherently should have good posture, and Im saying so should Boxing, and that Yelle is not Boxing).

2. However, we're talking about why so and so techniques work. Why a guy is in poor position after executing an attack, precisely what is "the right time, and the right place." Posture, within your stance, simply minimizes the openings for the opposition. It doesnt eliminate them. Sure, a guy can be a champ with poor posture, but the exceptions to a rule do not negate its existence.

1. I'm not competent to judge a boxing coach.... and YES I think it's important to look at the posture difference, here Yelle's 'failings....' A good reason not to be quick to dismiss the boxing posture issue as you've framed it--- >>> is that pro vid you put up in your TILE TRAINING T. That right cross that dumped the opponent on his can.... there's the 'perfect' body mechanics you're after I believe....

2. I was under the impression, that body lean, limb extension such as the shoulder you noted, bearing down, etc. was encouraged or at least conventionally allowed in boxing form.... and you've indicated "boxing" has strict posture dictates.... the illustrations you put up make clear, the advantages of better boxing posture....

KarateStylist

 

[Sinister]

Thank you. And poor posture as demonstrated by the photo above is only allowed in Boxing nowadays because trainers simply don't know any better. Or at least, don't teach any better.

 

[forward]

prince naseem posture

 

[yodave]

My interpretation of why some boxers use poor posture when they punch is because they are lazy, they lack the discipline to keep their chin down and their chest up.

Hopkins learnt to keep his chin tucked in by using a tennis ball tucked underneath his chin. And he always keeps his chin down in his fights. I 100% agree posture is super important. If your shoulders are always up and your chin always down when you throw a punch you can still block with your shoulders even after you miss a punch by rolling and slipping. So why don't fighters always keep their shoulders up? laziness

I am looking at the fighters that are getting hit in those pictures. Why are they in such a horrible posture. You would think a world class fighter would never find himself in such a horrible position, hands down, shoulders down, chins completely exposed, no wonder they get hit.

I know what I say might sound simple to some yet clearly some fighters just don't get it.

By the way I have been experimenting with a more slanted stance and I can see how it offers better protection.

 

[Sinister]

Again, it's about reinforcement from the trainers. Bernard had an EXCELLENT trainer, that's how he learned. Using the tennis ball isn't something he invented. A lot of these guys' trainers may tell them to tuck their chins (the ones who get especially perplexed tell their fighters to raise their shoulders, which is absurd and will eventually lead to injury. But they don't know what else to do. Very few of them I've seen ever describe what correct posture is, why it's important, and how to achieve it.

I've said this before, but it's the plague of people not knowing how to instruct what they want, so instead they attempt to force a guy to get as close to it as possible.