Battles of posture + positioning:

[Nuclearlandmine]

Honestly, they where more or less the same experience as you... and besides the instructor (which you had a decent scrap with, Ill admit) and the douche, they were more or less tai chi sparring lol and they couldnt kick for shit, remember where talking about a kicks based opponent here...

You can check my sparrings , I drop my hands too, but not with kicks involved... thats just crazy lol

And what did Sinister said about sparring at my experience again? C'mon now.

you said that in the "hands up thread", where you posted some karate shotokan guy pic to prove your point, forgetting that in shotokan rules there are NO low kicks, that's why kyokushin guys have a more squared stance. (by the way, i like that old school boxing stance and his principles as sinister explained them...i didn't know it but now i think i'd like to learn it. But i'm not using it for sumo, muay thai or soccer)

i've read the "whole story". so?
you were the one out of context, sparring against KK guys in their rules like it was a boxing match, as if your boxing stance could fit every ruleset.
And i think this is thread related, because teach us a lesson: every stance/style/posture has a "why" and it's related to his context.
The hunched front-weighted posture of Petrosyan works GOOD in his context. There is not an "absolute-correct-form" for every sport.

Again, the fact that the competition doesn't allow it in its rule set does not rule out its existence. I did said that previously (do you even remember?). In WTF Taekwondo competition the rules don't allow low kicks and there are barely (if not none) punches allowed. But i could bet that in Taekwondo they teach punches and low kicks (simply because i did trained with a taekwondo black belt while in UK and he confirmed that). The same could be said for Shotokan karate too. In fact i think Machida himself uses low kick from times to times as a trip, which confirming its existence. And no, Kyokushin karate does not have a square stance only because of low kick. It is not even that square.

Also, i did stated in the thread about my experiences adapting my stance and principals in a Kyokushin context, and it worked to an extent for my skills level. Hence why i tried to get a video up later on for discussion, but it turned out to be more than i asked for for some weird reasons, but still i went forward and post it up.

While yes, every basic stance/style/posture have a why in its context and there's no absolute correct form, that doesn't rule out that people can adapt different things, principals, stances and nuances from other arts to the context they needed if they can venture out of their sport, which is really what i am doing with my old school boxing in different contexts (kickboxing, MMA...). There's a reason why nakmuays and kickboxers learn pure boxing, and MMA fighter come and learn BJJ from Black Belt BJJers, simply because there are things that they can learn adapt when they needs to step up to their competition.

And also, even if there's no absolute correct form, there are, i believe however, the most "efficient" form simply because of physics. Hence in the OP regarding the chest up, chin down with subsequent examples in boxing/mma/kickboxing as how a simple thing such as posture can make a different in fight. Even with Petrosyan, yes his posture is not as proper as per the OP, but comparatively speaking vs his peers, his posture is great, which facciliate his defense vs the other kickboxer. I bet if he get his posture better, his ability to fight will increase tenfolds.

And lastly, let's not clog up the thread. If you want to debate more, take it to PM please.

 

[Sinister]

Let's keep this about principals of fighting and not personal experiences, I will delete posts that attempt to derail the thread.

 

[nakmuay84]

wtf, i'm not clogging the thread... we're talking about postures and stances for different contexts.
We're on this forum to discuss/debate/argue, aren't we?

I agree with you that we can pick things from different arts and adapt and so on... i myself trying to develop my own style (and i suck).
but i don't understand why, for example, can't we agree on this simple fact: a squarer stance is normally better when low kicks are involved.
You can see a more bladed stance in every fighting sport where low kicks are NOT allowed (TKD, shotokan... who cares if they also train energy waves, they don't use it in real fighting), then you can see the KK or MT guy stance, where they actually try to chop their legs down.

having said that, i'm not telling you how YOU should do... just keep going the way you like.. but when arguing on this forum, i think i can speak for many members here when i say: be open minded and cut that "i could correct Petrosyan's posture" attitude.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

wtf, i'm not clogging the thread... we're talking about postures and stances for different contexts.
We're on this forum to discuss/debate/argue, aren't we?

I agree with you that we can pick things from different arts and adapt and so on... i myself trying to develop my own style (and i suck).
but i don't understand why, for example, can't we agree on this simple fact: a squarer stance is normally better when low kicks are involved.
You can see a more bladed stance in every fighting sport where low kicks are NOT allowed (TKD, shotokan... who cares if they also train energy waves, they don't use it in real fighting), then you can see the KK or MT guy stance, where they actually try to chop their legs down.

having said that, i'm not telling you how YOU should do... just keep going the way you like.. but when arguing on this forum, i think i can speak for many members here when i say: be open minded and cut that "i could correct Petrosyan's posture" attitude.

PM sent.

 

[nakmuay84]

PM sent.

?
i don't see it

 

[Zephyros]

Petrosyan's positioning and distance control are exceptional partially because he's a southpaw, which enables him to maintain range and slow down the fight to that methodical, plodding pace that he's so effective at. Then he starts picking apart his opponents.

Plus, squared stances do facilitate easier/faster/effective checking, but ring sports are not video games. You don't really have to pick one stance and fight in it the entire time.

 

[Sinister]

Interesting thread, especially for me since my upper back has a slight hunch to it naturally. It makes me hunch forward slightly, but not so far forward that I can't tuck my chin all the way in and still see my opponent beneath my eyebrows.

The strengths to my slightly forward lean is that my body is better blocked, my range is slightly increased, and when I fade back I'm still relatively upright since I'm starting from a more forward posture.

My fighting has improved since I've gone to this, but I've also made many other improvements, so it's hard to say it's helped me definitively.

Can a slight forward cant be used in moderation, or do the disadvantages simply outweigh the advantages in all cases?

***** Edit ****

What I'm calling a slight forward cant is very similar to what Jack Dempsey referred to as the "Semi Crouch" in his book.

Typically the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

I was planning to create a separate thread for my question, but it seems aligned with this topic.

I was wondering how you guys think the stance and posture of fighters such as broner (the demarco fight), mayweather, toney and benton i.e. weight primarily on the back foot, lead hand slightly lower, and a bit more flat footed would do in the amateurs? Where nowadays I see the style of fighting is a lot more jumping on the toes, in and out, hands up high and punches in bunches. Could you have a successful amateur career with the 'old school' style in modern amateur boxing under the current rules?

Thanks

No one can say specifically how anyone would do. However, Toney, Mayweather, Broner, and Benton all did very well in the amateurs. Baiting a guy into getting out of position is baiting a guy to get out of position. The rule-set doesn't matter much.

wtf, i'm not clogging the thread... we're talking about postures and stances for different contexts.
We're on this forum to discuss/debate/argue, aren't we?

I agree with you that we can pick things from different arts and adapt and so on... i myself trying to develop my own style (and i suck).
but i don't understand why, for example, can't we agree on this simple fact: a squarer stance is normally better when low kicks are involved.
You can see a more bladed stance in every fighting sport where low kicks are NOT allowed (TKD, shotokan... who cares if they also train energy waves, they don't use it in real fighting), then you can see the KK or MT guy stance, where they actually try to chop their legs down.

having said that, i'm not telling you how YOU should do... just keep going the way you like.. but when arguing on this forum, i think i can speak for many members here when i say: be open minded and cut that "i could correct Petrosyan's posture" attitude.

First things first, if you notice a few posts are gone, none of them are yours. So calm down. My comment wasn't directed at you specifically. We are on this forum to discuss, not specifically to debate/argue. And if argument becomes rhetorical (for the thousandth time in this case), I'll simply remove it. But again, that's not directed at you specifically. Just a note.

Now, in-terms of Petrosyan. You seem to be very zealous about him based on that last line in your paragraph there. Let's keep in mind you brought him up, no one is saying specifically that they can correct his posture. I will say this, though, based on just the video you posted, in that instance, Giorgio's posture is much better than Krauss's. So I'm not sure if that video backs any point about his posture not being optimal at least in that instance. I also do not agree that Girgio stands square. I look at him and I'm seeing angles. Changes in shoulder and leg/foot angles. As for his leaning forward, he does that, but he does not remain forward, especially when the opponent is attacking. His first reaction is typically to pull back (create space), counter-punch/kick, and then change the angle (make the opponent reset). However, Zambidis gave him A LOT of problems by exploiting positioning. The knockdown in the 1st round is a good example, Giorgio reaches in to grab for the knee and Zambidis...shorter arms and all, sank down a bit to protect himself, then threw a left hook while Giorgio's face was exposed and his weight too far back. Now, some people may blame the knee attempt for the punch landing, but the fact is Zambidis landed a lot of left left hooks in that fight due to getting Giorgio to reach in (at which point his chin would come up quite a bit).

There's always corrections that could be made to any fighter, just about.

 

[SummerStriker]

So, I point my rear foot straight ahead at my opponent, but turn my hips away so I appear bladed some. Is that a bladed stance or a square stance?

 

[Sinister]

Eh? I'd never point the rear foot straight at the opponent. Most people point the rear foot at a 45 degree or 90 degree angle. I prefer 45 for mobility. The lead foot points closer to the opponent's center line. From there you decide where your hips point based on what you want to do.

 

[SummerStriker]

Eh? I'd never point the rear foot straight at the opponent. Most people point the rear foot at a 45 degree or 90 degree angle. I prefer 45 for mobility. The lead foot points closer to the opponent's center line. From there you decide where your hips point based on what you want to do.

I think it lets me throw rear leg snap kicks with less telegraph, because the orientation of the foot and knee don't have to change. It feels awkward the first few months when people learn to stand this way, for lots of reasons, but once you get used to it, it feels as natural as anything.

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, I'd still advise against fighting like that generally.

 

[KounterPunch]

Certainly the great modern fighters still utilize proper positioning, but in the pro's, you're in there with the elite. There's a million technical adjustments going on at once, and technical perfection cannot be present in every exchange or clash. It comes down to what you happen to be focusing on in the moment, whether it be figuring out patterns, tells, psychological assessment, whatever. That being said, Boxing principles dictate that the more technically sound you are, the better off you'll be, and it certainly should be applied more regularly, but it's rarely that ideal. The fighters who *are* able to do the right number of things all at once seamlessly in their style, however, become great.

Great post.

 

[KounterPunch]

Petrosyan's positioning and distance control are exceptional partially because he's a southpaw, which enables him to maintain range and slow down the fight to that methodical, plodding pace that he's so effective at. Then he starts picking apart his opponents.

Plus, squared stances do facilitate easier/faster/effective checking, but ring sports are not video games. You don't really have to pick one stance and fight in it the entire time.

I really like your posts , my friend.

 

[swamp_fist]

Plus, squared stances do facilitate easier/faster/effective checking, but ring sports are not video games. You don't really have to pick one stance and fight in it the entire time.

Good point. If I take a partial crouch, I'm not stuck in it by any means, and I do frequently change stance depending on what I'm trying to do or what my opponent is doing. It's been a big benefit in my distance game.

Petrosyan leans back less than say Mayweather in his fade back, which is something that also works better for my body. I can spring back much faster, and I can throw counter hooks better.

That being said, I'm going to spend some more sparring time in the chest out, chin down position and pay more attention to these factors in the next month. Trying is believing.

Thanks for the great thread.

 

[Discipulus]

Hm. Haven't seen the Zambidis-Petro fight. I'll have to check it out.

 

[Discipulus]

I think it lets me throw rear leg snap kicks with less telegraph, because the orientation of the foot and knee don't have to change. It feels awkward the first few months when people learn to stand this way, for lots of reasons, but once you get used to it, it feels as natural as anything.

Puts your head forward and center, is the main issue.

 

[SummerStriker]

Puts your head forward and center, is the main issue.

I widen my stance and turn out my rear foot when I get close enough to hit with my rear hand usually. If I'm too close to hit with the rear leg snap, I don't get an advantage from standing that way. From a distance though, I like being able to move around so fast and tricky.

The other reason is that with my feet closer together, my feet can travel further during the kick, front especially, so that people who think they are too far away from me for a standing kick are sometime surprised. The rear leg comes up straight, so it is tricky, and with my feet close, it doesn't take any time for my weight to shift to the lead when I throw the rear.

I realize there are disadvantages to the stance, and I do fall out of it when I'm in punching distance, but I'm not in punching distance much, so its my bread and butter.

Edit - thanks for the tip though. I'm just thinking out loud. I realize my response to your post is a knee jerk defense of my tastes.

 

[sourdiesel209]

Since were talking about Petro, we can finally put to rest that myth that you cant bob&weave or slip in kickboxing since you will instantly eat a knee lol... he just bob under a bunch of hooks on that video, and he always slips in his fights, and hes yet to eat a knee/kick because he does it at the right time and doesnt get timed...

 

[SummerStriker]

Since were talking about Petro, we can finally put to rest that myth that you cant bob&weave or slip in kickboxing since you will instantly eat a knee lol... he just bob under a bunch of hooks on that video, and he always slips in his fights, and hes yet to eat a knee/kick because he does it at the right time and doesnt get timed...

I had a buddy who used to bob and weave under spinning hook kicks. He could do it. Do you advocate that as a strategy?

There is a gulf between what's possible for people with great talent who apply themselves seriously and what is ethical to tell people to try. If someone ducks under a hook because you told them and eats a knee in the face, you share some blame in it. That's hard to take if you don't even think the bob and weave is necessary.

 

[sourdiesel209]

I had a buddy who used to bob and weave under spinning hook kicks. He could do it. Do you advocate that as a strategy?

There is a gulf between what's possible for people with great talent who apply themselves seriously and what is ethical to tell people to try. If someone ducks under a hook because you told them and eats a knee in the face, you share some blame in it. That's hard to take if you don't even think the bob and weave is necessary.

lol its fighting, your always taking a risk.. like any technique, if you apply it at the wrong time/place you might pay for it .. its not the techniques fault, but you as a fighter that applied it wrong and got timed for it or w/e..

so its not my fault if you get the advice wrong... If you dont think you can pull it off, dont try it... Im not advocating bobbing like a madman but that its good to have it in your arsenal if you come across an opponent who uses punches alot, even in kickboxing..

Its really hard to throw a knee and a hook at the same time, so unless he fakes the hook first then knees (but this would take some skill and setup) its probably not gonna happen if your picking which shot to bob under and not going all mike tyson

Theres a gif somewhere of some dude slipping 3 jabs in a row ending with a high kick to the face but Im to lazy to find it.. its a good example of what NOT to do if you dont wanna get timed.. but Petro doesnt slip like that