As "The Crow" flies.
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There's been guys who have badmouthed TKD in spite of the effectiveness of the spinning back kick. They say things like "that was just flash, it didn't hurt (his opponent), he was just scoring points" and all that trash.blanko said:
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blanko
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well seing one spinning back kick in does not sell them... Come on bro... if you saw the sliding heel hook that ryo choan did... would you be "sold"? Ofcourse not. I am a grappler and i would advise people not to depend on that move.
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graedy said:
Eh, its not that important. I have my own opinions about the step-in non-pivot kick, just wanted to see what others' were.
For what it's worth, Bas Rutten really did a lot to popularize that style of kicking here in the US. Before he started advocating it, there weren't a lot of adherents to that style but now, you can't throw a rock without hitting some Joe who'll spout off "but Bas Rutten says..."
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A grappler advising strikers on what and what not to rely on = irrelevant.
Sorry man, I respect your input as a grappler A LOT, but you are very grappling biased. That's not a bad thing, in being a grappler I'd expect you to be no other way and largely be confident in your techniques and abilities. However I do think it would be more tactful of you not to recommend that others do not do the same. The only way a man is going to be ABLE to pull a spinning back-kick soundly IN MMA (which is a noble enough goal) is to first KNOW he can accomplish that goal.
Also, David is far from the first man to land a kick, moreover a complex kick in MMA. He's just one of the ones with enough speed, accuracy, timing, and power to land it to where it can make a difference. One doesn't have to be "sold" on it, as you put it. But it does say that it CAN be done. It's no fluke.
blanko said:
Ha ha. This was directed at my comment.
Dude. One guy said something like, "That kind of shit wouldn't work on me!"
Granted there were 1000 posts after that with 'Yeah right!
'I essentially agree with Blanko on the importance of crosstraining. But then again everyone agrees with that. But the point the threadstarter was trying to make is that MMA is truly becoming more mixed. You're actually seeing techniques from TMAs that have long been thought of as 'flashy/useless' being used. Not only being used but being the show stopper. Both in effectiveness and in crowd pleasing.
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blanko
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well king,
Well to tell you the truth, i only became a grappler the last two years. The first 3 years of my "martial arts" life was on Muay Thai. (a bit, i was very bad hahaha)
you are missing my point. I said "does not sell THEM" meaning to the unbeliever. The only way to prove them wrong is for this type of attack be used in great sucess more often. Seing something once or twice is not a good example right? Can it be done? Yea and so can rolling kneebars from the standing position. What i am saying is, it's not suprising that there are unbelievers out there.
Well at the highest lvl of mma (UFC and PRIDE) how many times have you seen the spinnin back kicked used with great effectiveness? I remember Saku putting a hurting on Vitor with that kick but other than that i don't remember it being used with any sucess in PRIDE. As for the UFC, other than the crow, how many times has it been used? What i am saying is this: Sure any given move can work in any given time but you can't blame people for not believing when there are not many examples of it being used at the hightest lvl.
Well to tell you the truth, i only became a grappler the last two years. The first 3 years of my "martial arts" life was on Muay Thai. (a bit, i was very bad hahaha)
you are missing my point. I said "does not sell THEM" meaning to the unbeliever. The only way to prove them wrong is for this type of attack be used in great sucess more often. Seing something once or twice is not a good example right? Can it be done? Yea and so can rolling kneebars from the standing position. What i am saying is, it's not suprising that there are unbelievers out there.
Well at the highest lvl of mma (UFC and PRIDE) how many times have you seen the spinnin back kicked used with great effectiveness? I remember Saku putting a hurting on Vitor with that kick but other than that i don't remember it being used with any sucess in PRIDE. As for the UFC, other than the crow, how many times has it been used? What i am saying is this: Sure any given move can work in any given time but you can't blame people for not believing when there are not many examples of it being used at the hightest lvl.
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GSP nailed Matt Hughes with one sending him into the cage. Someone tried to tell me it didn't hurt Matt, but Matt immediately made a horrible shot off the cage that was highly vulnerable to a KO knee. This is out of character for Matt. He doesn't do stupid things when he gets caught by harmless strikes.
Frank Shamrock landed one, but I can't remember on who.
Shonie Carter landed one on Pete Sell.
I'm pretty sure I've seen Genki (ex. on Leigh Remedios) and Gomi land it more than once.
Although it's not the "highest" level, I think I remember Rashad nailed Mike Whitehead with one.
And I know I'm forgetting one of my favorite ones from the UFC. Ah, this is painful. Rich Franklin, maybe?
Frank Shamrock landed one, but I can't remember on who.
Shonie Carter landed one on Pete Sell.
I'm pretty sure I've seen Genki (ex. on Leigh Remedios) and Gomi land it more than once.
Although it's not the "highest" level, I think I remember Rashad nailed Mike Whitehead with one.
And I know I'm forgetting one of my favorite ones from the UFC. Ah, this is painful. Rich Franklin, maybe?
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Mick, you're also forgetting that Stephen Bonnar landed it not only on the show but didn't he smack his last opponent in the gut with it, too?
Blanko - Good response as always. Yeah after I posted my response I realized I might have been a little tough on you particularly, but you're a tough guy so I didn't go sissify it with editing. lol
It's just always been my contention that any move (pretty much, barring Mortal Kombat Uppercuts, Fireballs, Power-ups a-la Dragonball Z (though you can scare the piss out of people in the streets doing that), and Street Fighter II Hurricane Kicks) will work in almost any situation when delivered with the proper speed, timing, accuracy, power, and commitment. I don't think there's too much reason to fear any one fighter over another. To me that's the highest level mentality to have in MMA, just KNOW your shit works because you train properly, don't go into the fight all jittery about throwing a particular move. I think David and other strikers who have had that mentality excel where others who want or attempt similar techniques have failed because he does them without abandon, confident that he can defend himself on the ground if/when he ends up there. He's lost in the past so he knows what that's like. But he's excelled now to the degree of getting a title shot. And his partner St. Pierre is doing VERY well for himself with a similar mentality.
You make a very valid point about their training though. It takes HARD work and a lot of discipline to get to that point. It's just good to see more strikers doing so. It's been long overdue IMO.
Blanko - Good response as always. Yeah after I posted my response I realized I might have been a little tough on you particularly, but you're a tough guy so I didn't go sissify it with editing. lol
It's just always been my contention that any move (pretty much, barring Mortal Kombat Uppercuts, Fireballs, Power-ups a-la Dragonball Z (though you can scare the piss out of people in the streets doing that), and Street Fighter II Hurricane Kicks) will work in almost any situation when delivered with the proper speed, timing, accuracy, power, and commitment. I don't think there's too much reason to fear any one fighter over another. To me that's the highest level mentality to have in MMA, just KNOW your shit works because you train properly, don't go into the fight all jittery about throwing a particular move. I think David and other strikers who have had that mentality excel where others who want or attempt similar techniques have failed because he does them without abandon, confident that he can defend himself on the ground if/when he ends up there. He's lost in the past so he knows what that's like. But he's excelled now to the degree of getting a title shot. And his partner St. Pierre is doing VERY well for himself with a similar mentality.
You make a very valid point about their training though. It takes HARD work and a lot of discipline to get to that point. It's just good to see more strikers doing so. It's been long overdue IMO.
blanko said:
Then do you really consider yourself a grappler? Or just a martial artist in general.
See I've only been doing Sambo a little over a year and then only twice a week. And some of that time we work on Systema (which I really don't like, btw, but that is beside the point). But I don't consider myself a guy who is training for MMA. If I was training for MMA competition I'd be doing it all much harder (including my TMA training harder too).
I'm just a guy who is interested in all sorts of techniques. Maybe the proper definition is a armchair athlete/couch warrior (as everyone is quick to accuse each other of being on this board heh heh).
Like you, I find it funny when a guy who trains three times a week, an hour each time, looks at the Crow and says, "See! It works for him. I can now rest confident in the knowledge that I too am a bad ass." We all know the Crow trains like five hours a day in multiple disciplines.
But the thing that is interesting is what CAN work given the proper committment and training.
The way I see it the early UFCs were all about a guy who trained, at most, five times a week for an hour or so going against pros (the Gracies). Not to mention that those guys had no experience in NHB. So basically you have an amateur against a professional.
And when the wrestlers came on the scene they were pros man. Those guys train like animals for the olympics and the ground game was king at the time.
But what I find interesting about the new crop of fighters is that you actually have pros who have some TMAs lurking in their background coming onto the scene. They are revamped. They train long hours and with intensity. They are fully versed in all aspects of the game. And so your going to start seeing more and more weird stuff that people thought, 'didn't work'.
That is my take on it anyway.
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Yeah, you're right. That was one of my favorites, too. He also partially caught Forrest with that wheel kick in the last minute of the fight.King Kabuki said:
God, that fight was glorious. I don't care if it was TUF, it was the best I've ever seen.
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blanko
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aaron_mag,
i call myself "weekend warrior" and nothing more. Unlesss you are getting paid to fight or to train people you are a "weekend warrior" and nothing more. YOu can calim to have done this and that, trained with this guy and that guy, but that's all bullshit. If you are out of school and train and you don't get paid to fight. You are a weekend warrior, no matter how good a fighter you are, you are nothing more than a weekend warrior. I consider myself a very bad weekend warrior.
i call myself "weekend warrior" and nothing more. Unlesss you are getting paid to fight or to train people you are a "weekend warrior" and nothing more. YOu can calim to have done this and that, trained with this guy and that guy, but that's all bullshit. If you are out of school and train and you don't get paid to fight. You are a weekend warrior, no matter how good a fighter you are, you are nothing more than a weekend warrior. I consider myself a very bad weekend warrior.
blanko said:aaron_mag,
i call myself "weekend warrior" and nothing more. Unlesss you are getting paid to fight or to train people you are a "weekend warrior" and nothing more. YOu can calim to have done this and that, trained with this guy and that guy, but that's all bullshit. If you are out of school and train and you don't get paid to fight. You are a weekend warrior, no matter how good a fighter you are, you are nothing more than a weekend warrior. I consider myself a very bad weekend warrior.
Ha ha. MMA needs weekend warriors like us dude. Who else is going to spend money on training DVDs and seminars?
Speaking of which I bought GSPs training DVD. When I get it I'll do a review for its usefulness to weekend warriors.
the reason david was so calm on the ground w/tanner is simple; tanner is not that good on the ground, yeah he has good positioning and a great clinch. But every other aspect of his game is average, his takedowns..submisions..throws..ground control is OK; any top or middle tier mw can eff blunt his grappling off. Minowa...sakuraba..franklin..weir..shogun... silva..arona..henderson..kondo...tamura..busta...ghono and countless others could reverse him..def his takedowns and possibly submit him.
he gets by cus of conditioning..gameplanning...pressure..and his overall skills in fighting, he can def/do everything well enough to find *****s in his opp armor..wear them down and break them down w/an area they are weak in...i.e. robbie lawler (standup) the guy he beat for the title positioning/wrestling..gholar striking/subs. When matched w/someone who is equally well rounded he gets it handed to him..franklin/loiseau or someone who is stronger in his area of specialty (clinch)..he gets it handed to him i.e. tito
another reason he can def subs like he does; because people look to guide u into subs, or distract u to get an opening... loiseau relaxes...an lets them get into a groove of trying to slip the sub in. THEN he explodes..reverses position and explodes w/in their guard w/punches..elbows. An most mma guys are not skilled enough def, to control him and keep him out of range or they are not skilled/aggressive enough to attack w/subs to keep him from opening up w/strikes. So he gets to work at the pace he is comfortable w/and eff make their guard window dressing..
he gets by cus of conditioning..gameplanning...pressure..and his overall skills in fighting, he can def/do everything well enough to find *****s in his opp armor..wear them down and break them down w/an area they are weak in...i.e. robbie lawler (standup) the guy he beat for the title positioning/wrestling..gholar striking/subs. When matched w/someone who is equally well rounded he gets it handed to him..franklin/loiseau or someone who is stronger in his area of specialty (clinch)..he gets it handed to him i.e. tito
another reason he can def subs like he does; because people look to guide u into subs, or distract u to get an opening... loiseau relaxes...an lets them get into a groove of trying to slip the sub in. THEN he explodes..reverses position and explodes w/in their guard w/punches..elbows. An most mma guys are not skilled enough def, to control him and keep him out of range or they are not skilled/aggressive enough to attack w/subs to keep him from opening up w/strikes. So he gets to work at the pace he is comfortable w/and eff make their guard window dressing..
as far as tech tht work, anything can work; if u prepare urself to use it eff..meaning u have developed tech to assist u in case the tech misses or does not have the desired eff.
example: u miss the kick...are u comfortable enough on the ground to def, control the pace and work ur way back to ur feet... or i land the kick and get taken down..can u control the pace and work ur way back to ur feet.
most guys don't throw those kicks cus they fear going to the ground; once u have prepared for that danger, then u can throw those kicks freely... same thing as a wrestler who becomes competent striking; he does not have to lunge in to a clinch or just shoot blindly, he can def..control the dist..counter strike long enough to work himself into a position to get the tieup/clinch/takedown/throw..
same priniciple and i presented both sides so both grapplers/strikers can get it...
as far as kicks i have seen work:
pat smith - front kicked some dude..dropped him then tapped him w/a guillitone
pete williams- head kick to mark coleman
pat militech- ko shonie carter
chuck liddel- ko babalu
sylvia- ko tra
bas rutten- liver kick on randleman eff won him the fight
cro cop- dropped nog
cro cop- fedor (k0) don caras
the crow- mccarthy
mark weir- phillip miller/shoji
gsp-matt hughes
example: u miss the kick...are u comfortable enough on the ground to def, control the pace and work ur way back to ur feet... or i land the kick and get taken down..can u control the pace and work ur way back to ur feet.
most guys don't throw those kicks cus they fear going to the ground; once u have prepared for that danger, then u can throw those kicks freely... same thing as a wrestler who becomes competent striking; he does not have to lunge in to a clinch or just shoot blindly, he can def..control the dist..counter strike long enough to work himself into a position to get the tieup/clinch/takedown/throw..
same priniciple and i presented both sides so both grapplers/strikers can get it...
as far as kicks i have seen work:
pat smith - front kicked some dude..dropped him then tapped him w/a guillitone
pete williams- head kick to mark coleman
pat militech- ko shonie carter
chuck liddel- ko babalu
sylvia- ko tra
bas rutten- liver kick on randleman eff won him the fight
cro cop- dropped nog
cro cop- fedor (k0) don caras
the crow- mccarthy
mark weir- phillip miller/shoji
gsp-matt hughes
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Also, Semmy Schilt dropped Pete williams with a front kick to the sternum.
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Speaking of David I just saw his fight with Gideon Ray, yikes, what a sick cut to the top of the head.
**Edit: In every fight of his I've gotten a hold of, even when HE shoots on his opponent, the announcers say "I don't think the ground is a place Crow wants to be." And each time I've seen someone say that so far he proceeds to kick the shit out of his opponent, on the ground. LOL
**Edit: In every fight of his I've gotten a hold of, even when HE shoots on his opponent, the announcers say "I don't think the ground is a place Crow wants to be." And each time I've seen someone say that so far he proceeds to kick the shit out of his opponent, on the ground. LOL
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The Crow's got the most vicious elbows ive ever seen in my life! What a fucking weapon! That dude should train purely to avoid subs and to get into people's guards where he's a fucking killer...
Also those spinning kicks when throw right are devastating. Kamran El Amrani in Superleague has many stoppages from them, and over top class opponents. Thats over top kickboxers they work, thrown right in mma against guys not used to that shit i'd think they would be way more effective. Most guys when they see a kick being thrown will protect the head.
Also those spinning kicks when throw right are devastating. Kamran El Amrani in Superleague has many stoppages from them, and over top class opponents. Thats over top kickboxers they work, thrown right in mma against guys not used to that shit i'd think they would be way more effective. Most guys when they see a kick being thrown will protect the head.
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Good observation. And I think the stand-up guys are starting to notice that. Not even just the stand-up guys but guys looking to enhance their abilities. This tendency is exactly how Nick Diaz landed that jumping roundhouse he scored on that one dude, I think his last fight before Diego. And a lot of guys are getting knocked out because they don't know how to defend shit like flying knees or spinning kicks. They just either only cover their faces or duck and shoot right into the full force of the technique. Smart stand-up guys are starting to see the holes in the guys who only practice "MMA" as a would-be new and complete Art in and of itself.
