As "The Crow" flies.

King Kabuki said:
Mick, welcome to that forum. Under this King's eye, that's the idea around here. This is for technique, so let's talk about the techniques and such, and share knowledge, legit gripes can be discussed of course, but immature banter simply won't due. And if I'm considered a Nazi for that, well so be it.

Cool. I need to come around here more often. It sucks to have to wade through threads such as "Pride vs. UFC" or "Which fighter would you like to smoke a joint with" to find a decent discussion. Of course, I get a kick out of the juvenille antics on MMA at times, but I now know where to come to speak with other adults. :D
 
I'd personally love to see a MT or TKD fighter with some capoeira skills, using capoeira as a suppliment to the more orthodox standup. I'm absolutely positive that someone training in these two stand ups (as well as groundwork, obviously) would do amazingly well. Someone having no fear of a takedown and being able to kick from any angle unexpectedly would be a joy to see.

Right now I'm a grappler learning kickboxing... I think the next evolution in MMA is going to come from guys who repeatedly change attack levels. Going for a jab, fake a shot, come u with an uppercut/knee, go for a real shot, stand up and kick.... stuff like that. Right now it seems people are either standing or on the ground, and nothing inbetween. Even the freestyle fighters with no particular comfort zone... if they shoot, it's because they're trying to take you down, not because they want to get some standing shots in or anything else.
 
Madmick said:
One bonus is distance, that's for sure.

And to Doughbelly, I understand that "finding a range" is not easy. Believe me, I'm the sparring dummy for the Amateur Northern & Central California Heavyweight boxing champion. He's 5'11", I'm 6'5". All the work we do is about getting him inside, so obviously, all the work I do is about trying to keep him out.

However, I just meant that, should you take a TKD practicioner who has developed his kick over 10 years, it's going to take him far less time to adjust his range and adapt his technique to MMA than it would for a newcomer to develop a kick of his power, technique, and accuracy.

Yet the dudes in the main forum who don't even train think they could kick a TMAer's ass without a lick of training.

You got that right! I went to an MMA oriented school for a short while (with my brother). He stopped going after he had another kid and I found a school that did Sambo that wasn't an hour drive from my house. But I digress...

My brother did very well on the ground with his wrestling background. But he got knocked down (seeing stars and everything) a couple times by a guy who was a blackbelt in Shotokan karate.

Conversely I didn't do so well on the ground at first (not having experience with it), but no one ever knocked me down with a punch or a kick. Don't get me wrong. I got submitted by some of the most simplistic shit (guillotined and RNCed over and over again ha ha ha). But I understood distance in standup from my TKD background. And people often would say, "No kicks to the head, okay?" before we sparred.

The problem with the MMA forum is that everyone wants to be a badass. No one wants to say, "I gave up my back because I didn't know any better the first time I did groundwork..."

There is NO shame in getting schooled. That is part of learning. I can't understand why people don't get that! You get up, dust yourself off, and say, "Thanks. That was a cool move. I'd like to learn that..."
 
No kicks to the head?

Tell those pussies you're not baking cookies. How are you supposed to develop such a unique weapon if you can't practice it?

Next time they say that, say, "Yeah, okay," then first thing you do you kick them in the head.
 
thank god someone has some maturity and can think outside the box; i been telling these clowns on the mma forum, as well as closeminded people i know in general that tma's all have value, esp when they are supported by hard sparring or more importantly training w/diff stylist.

for some reason these guys don't want to admit the validity of any art outside of wrestling bjj muay thai boxing etc; when in actuality any art can and will be applicable if u have real life exp...train w/other styles..have the guts to attempt certain tech or have the physical attributes to pull them off.


about 6yrs ago i spoke to shonie carter on a radio show, it was after he koed serra; an he told me any and all tech can work, it's just so many people get so closeminded or brainwashed by what the gracies tell them and what they have seen in the ufc. They abandon the tech they spent years mastering, instead trying to do what every other mma fighter is doing and then don't understand why they get beat. Shone stated he knows 95% of these guys don't respect tma, therefore they don't prepare to def the tech; he said serra had no idea how to def or counter the backfist, an had no idea how to scout it. WHICH IS WHY HE GOT CAUGHT W/THE SAME TECH AGAIN AND KOED.

I have made posts about kenpo artist i have sparred w/all of which were familiar w/diff styles of grappling/strking; an they made it a point to spar very hard, some of the guys i tapped...some guys it was draws w/..some guys handed me my ass. An i really had a newfound respect for the art and people who do it; in alot of cases they gave me more trouble then some bjj...wrestling..judo..boxing...kickboxing stylist did. An i was not sparring some no talent..low level guys yet these tma cats, even the one's who got beat were giving me problems.

hell i even got in a fight w/a guy who had a bjj background; but was mostly a tma karate guy and his sh*t was tight..his strikes were hard..he had a wide array of off attacks; an alot of his freedom w/his strikes came from a familiarity w/the groundwork.

the point is regardless of what u take if u are openminded..train hard and realistically u will be a problem...

thank u for an intelligent discussion about all this
 
an i agree w/the prior poster...1st thing u do is kick them to the head; i hate when grappler or mma types handcuff a person w/better standup, then talk all this ish cus they beat them cus they had them at a disadvantage...

that's like u saying no rnc..using the guard or armbars
 
I agree on this one, Kabuki. There was a time nobody threw kicks inMMA, almost like kicking was silly. But really, the good strikers just had to get up to speed against grapplers. Now the sprawl and brawl style, and the where-did-that-come-from-kick? are totally viable, and you are gonna see more of this. I think the key was not being afraid of getting taken down, and remaining calm, and having some defense on the ground.

Dave giving up his back is an interestng thing. It's almost like he doesn't care, because he's not afrid of the position, just the choke. AND if Tanner or McCarthy couldn't get that choke (really, each of them had more than a minute to accomplish it) then Mr. Loiseau knows something they don't.

BTW, I learned the flying/advancing knee as a way to fight a wrestler way back in the 80's, it just takes a brave man, willing to use it in the ring, and now I've seen 3 fights in the uFC ended with it. More to come.
 
Oh, yeah, and I agree with Krawlins, too. I love guys like that who really mix the styles. Bustamonte comes to mind, and some of the Russian fighters. What's his name, Suloev. I've twice seen him trading uppercuts in the clinch, give ground, then suddenl toss the other guy in a classic Judo throw.

Think also of the Superman punch, and the one wrestler who takes a long step that looks like a penetration step, but turns into a reachin overhand right, just as the guy starts to sprawl. Brad Kohler, Yeah..
 
the bottom like is this: Crosstraining and working on your weaknesses so you can get out of bad positions is the key of mma. You have to be comfortable in all distances. Like crocop improving his ground game to gomi improving his stand up. That's the beauty of mma.
 
beatin'stick said:
There was a time nobody threw kicks inMMA, almost like kicking was silly.

Alot of people who have never taken kicking arts think that. I remember back in high school alot of the idiots I hung arouns with who were brawlers would talk smackabout karate and so forth , saying 'No real fighter will let you kick them in a fight' and sh#t like that. I wish they could fight Crocop or Loiseau for a few rounds. :(
 
Dave giving up his back is an interestng thing. It's almost like he doesn't care, because he's not afrid of the position, just the choke.

yea but that's because there are no 4 point attacks in the UFC. Saku used to give up his back all the time when PRIDE didn't allow soccer kicks and 4 point attacks... look at him now.
 
yea but that's because there are no 4 point attacks in the UFC. Saku used to give up his back all the time when PRIDE didn't allow soccer kicks and 4 point attacks... look at him now.

I seriously doubt that in the gym, David's training for being calm on the ground is centered around the rule-structure. Rather I think what it capitalizes on is that he stays calm and let's grapplers' patience become their downfall. This because he always reverses the position at a moment when they're extremely relaxed themselves and don't anticipate a move from him because he's so "clueless". Then bing, in one second he's on top and dropping 'bows. He kind of lulls them to sleep and then turns the tables. But I do think the rule structure of UFC's caters to this and he'd have to adapt differently for different rule-structures.
 
I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the term "4 point attack". Help out an oldschooler?
 
beatin'stick said:
I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the term "4 point attack". Help out an oldschooler?

An attack made when your oppponent is in the '4-points position', i.e. on all fours, both hands and knees touching the ground, crawling position.
 
TKO allows knees to the head in 4 point and the ground... but I've only seen one of his fights in TKO and he didn't give back (facing a kickboxer)
 
Cro Cop doesnt pivot (at least when he kicks in mma), or does he and im completely wrong on this one?
Anyway, not pivoting lessens the reach of your kick but has some other advantages (has been discussed in another thread) and connecting with your instep gives you a better reach than kicking with your chin. Well, i think you guys know what i wanna to say :).
 
graedy said:
Cro Cop doesnt pivot (at least when he kicks in mma), or does he and im completely wrong on this one?
Anyway, not pivoting lessens the reach of your kick but has some other advantages (has been discussed in another thread) and connecting with your instep gives you a better reach than kicking with your chin. Well, i think you guys know what i wanna to say :).

Crocop's kicks are pretty varied. Sometimes he pivots, sometimes, he doesn't. His bread and butter seems to be that European style step-in non pivot roundhouse. It's good for blasting out stand alone power kicks, but not as good for combination punching/kicking. He uses his instep most of the time, too, which is another one of those things those guys who have only swam in their own pond will tell you is not the right way to kick. And Crocop's kicks were considered exceptionally powerful, even by K-1 standards.

Can you link to the other thread? Looked for it and can't find it.
 
I seriously doubt that in the gym, David's training for being calm on the ground is centered around the rule-structure.Rather I think what it capitalizes on is that he stays calm and let's grapplers' patience become their downfall. This because he always reverses the position at a moment when they're extremely relaxed themselves and don't anticipate a move from him because he's so "clueless".

well all training is designed for competiton, if you don't have soccer kicks/knees comming to your head while turtling it's easier to "think things out" like saku used to. He stays calm because he is a well trained mma fighter who was coached well in defending on the ground. Guess that just proves that being a good MMA fighter is about being well trained in MMA.
 
aaron_mag said:
The final thing I don't understand is why more people aren't excited by a fighter like the Crow. My brother comes from a wrestling background. He is a huge MMA fan. When he saw the Crow do that spinning back kick he was like, "Frick! That was amazing! Awesome."

Yet you have a lot of guys who seem pissed that it worked at all. You'd think people would like exciting fighters. I just don't get it.
It's taken that long for them to become inured: not long at all.

A human who is willing to evolve is a human who has admitted he is imperfect and a belief he worked hard to fashion out of raw truths is wrong, and must be improved.

I must say, I find it very challenging to swallow crow myself. But if an Aikido guy came in and started whipping ass, I'd buy his instructional.

It's that simple, yet so difficult in this context, our human nature.
 
Yet you have a lot of guys who seem pissed that it worked at all. You'd think people would like exciting fighters. I just don't get it.

the thing that makes me wonder is... Who are you talking about? No one i talked to or read on the forum "seemed pissed"...
 
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