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Armchair Jiujitsu: Carwin's Shoulder Choke D?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by King Creatine, Jul 3, 2010.

  1. King Creatine

    King Creatine Purple Belt

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    It's easy to talk about how to defend a shoulder choke from the couch, especially when a gorilla like Lesnar is applying it. That being said, Carwin seems to have missed a basic defense to the choke.

    I was taught that if somebody is applying a shoulder choke from cross body, you simply bear hug one of your legs. It isn't an escape, but it certainly stalemates the choke! What would you have done?






    (Again, assuming you have the wherewithal to withstand a Lesnar vice grip choke :icon_lol:)
     
  2. fry_ed

    fry_ed Yellow Belt

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    Actually, yeah, I would've grabbed my left foot with my trapped arm as a last ditch attempt to survive. (I think that's what you're saying, sort of?)

    But, more than likely, against someone as strong as Lesnar, I would just look like an idiot holding my own damn foot as I pass out.
     
  3. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Reaching down and hugging your own leg stalemates the choke but it leaves you vulnerable to an armbar or a kimura.

    The other commonly used defense is to "answer the phone" with your trapped arm. This creates space and usually prevents your opponent from finishing the choke. Couture escaped an arm triangle from Big Nog this way. This is usually what I do, and I wait for my opponent to burn out his arm strength and give up the choke. But to get out of it, I think you either have to work your arm back under your opponent's head, or you have to roll in the other direction and get to your knees before the choke gets too tight.

    There's also a way to escape it by bridging and rolling your opponent over you, but that shit would not work on Brock Lesnar.

    The arm triangle is really a great choke because the escapes all basically suck. You really just have to not let him get your head and arm trapped in the first place.
     
  4. BJJ Coffee Drinker

    BJJ Coffee Drinker Amateur Fighter

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    plus the fact that Shane was practically going to die from exhaustion did not help his defenses at all
     
  5. thegreenblender

    thegreenblender Brown Belt

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    True. I've yet to see a good arm triangle escape. Yah, they work, but not great. I mean, if you can just quickly fold your arms and position to methodically stack and defend an armbar from guard, it's almost high percentage. You still end up exerting quite a bit of energy no matter what if you end up fighting off and arm triangle.
     
  6. King Creatine

    King Creatine Purple Belt

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    Everything you said is true, no doubt. "Answer the phone" does work pretty well. I just think my arm would telescope in on itself with Lesnar crunching the choke on.

    But can you imagine Lesnar countering the "grab leg" defense with an armbar? I guess it's possible for an athletic dude like that, but still. Kind of a comical mental image. haha
     
  7. ultimateriley-o

    ultimateriley-o Lego Maniac

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    yeah, i think that pretty much says it. he sort of feebly clawed at brock's arm for a second but it looked like he had already mentally given up before that point and simply didn't have the energy continue, particularly trying out sub defenses he probably hasn't had to spend a lot of time drilling in the gym.

    leg-hug defense always works better for me than answering the phone though, because i can frequently use that explosively and then roll to either try to take the back or simply get back to my feet.
     
  8. Title Fight Productions

    Title Fight Productions Steel Belt

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  9. Title Fight Productions

    Title Fight Productions Steel Belt

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    Lets not get to far away from the fact that Lesnar used pretty damn good technique to get that sub. He passed to mount, with the head already in position, took the time in mount to "sinch" it up and then dismounted, applied, dropped his hips and when he couldn't get the finish, instead of staying there and muscling it he walked his hips out toward Carwin's head.

    Not bad imo.
     
  10. thegreenblender

    thegreenblender Brown Belt

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    ^^^
    Seriously. And they are heavyweights, which means we have to show a lot more leniency towards their submission prowess because HW's big muscles drain their heads of blood and makes them mildly retarded as they fight, so the standards are lower. I joke, but I'm kind of serious. Among HW's you have to give them a little slack, they are just a little bigger and dumber and stronger and their tech doesn't have to be picture perfect in that playing field.
     
  11. Dono**

    Dono** Banned Banned

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    :icon_neut

    Don't forget the only weight class that matters to the general public.

    U mad?
     
  12. wyth

    wyth White Belt

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    Was just talking about this in another thread, but from a wrestling standpoint. The head-and-arm triangle is similar to an offensive counter to a headlock defense -- a counter counter. The best defense seems to be to think a few moves ahead and anticipate it with the leg-hug, and like in that video, keep parallel and arch -- kind of turning into the body while rolling away -- so the choke rides high and you can roll under it.

    If you can keep your opponent's wrist on the roll, you can also end up with his arm behind his back in a kind of chicken wing position.

    It's rare enough to see heavyweights arch with all that weight on top of them, let alone pulling it off when gassed. All the more reason to train for it.

    (I'm coming more from a wrestling background, so what I just said may be complete ass-hattery.)
     
  13. liqour_rat

    liqour_rat White Belt

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    Not taking anything away from Brock, but, did anyone else notice that he did not start going to his right to finish the choke until he looked up and received instruction from his corner to doe so?
    I know in a fight you dont always process things the same but I thought he was a purple belt and it should have been second nature. No?
     
  14. Vaga

    Vaga Yellow Belt

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    ^You've never competed have you?
     
  15. liqour_rat

    liqour_rat White Belt

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    MMA never, but I have in BJJ tourneys
     
  16. randomg1t

    randomg1t EVERYTIME CHAMPION

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    ok but i mean, the dude applying the triangle here had his butt all the way up and was on his knees when he got reversed.

    i don't see this working when the attacker is in proper position with his hips as low as possible and sprawled out. i mean, not unless there's a huge weight difference and certainly not when brock lesnar is the man on top.

    like someone else said, all sidechoke defenses are shit. the best thing to do is not get your arm caught in there and shane fucked up something awful for putting it there himself.
     
  17. dat1978

    dat1978 Brown Belt

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    brock is not a purple belt.
     
  18. sha

    sha Geekjitsu Black Belt

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    Brock finished the arm triangle very well by keeping low and "turning the corner" like Joe Rogan said. Almost reminded me of the Aurelio vs Gomi arm triangle, that one was beautiful..

    One interesting thing about the arm triangle is that it's much more effective against big guys. Since you're getting choked by your own shoulder and arm, the bigger it is, the more effective the choke is. In fact, I think the standard defenses wouldn't work for a guy like Carwin, because his shoulder is so big that even if he prevented his arm from getting crossed over by grabbing his own leg or answering the phone, he might still get choked from his own shoulder alone.
     
  19. sha

    sha Geekjitsu Black Belt

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    Brock finished the arm triangle very well by keeping low and "turning the corner" like Joe Rogan said. Almost reminded me of the Aurelio vs Gomi arm triangle, that one was beautiful..

    One interesting thing about the arm triangle is that it's much more effective against big guys. Since you're getting choked by your own shoulder and arm, the bigger it is, the more effective the choke is. In fact, I think the standard defenses wouldn't work for a guy like Carwin, because his shoulder is so big that even if he prevented his arm from getting crossed over by grabbing his own leg or answering the phone, he might still get choked from his own shoulder alone.
     
  20. Far Queue

    Far Queue Leatherbelt

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    I knew Carwin was finished the second Rogan said he wasn't in danger.
     

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