Am I the only one who thinks competitions are worthless?

[He Man]

Ryron did not TOY with Andre.

That means Ryron's defense and escapes were better than Andre's offense and positional dominance - in other words Ryron is just better. Towards the end Andre was stalling out and super gassed. I'm sure he would've been submitted had the match lasted another 5 minutes.

Heck, the Roger v. Buchecha match from the same competition as Ryron v. Andre was an exceptional match (admittedly, in a submission only tournament).

I agree, I think that is my whole point. Not just because there was action, but because both are confident in their BJJ and it shows. They truly fought. Even though no one won, they didn't (or couldn't) win based on exploitation of the system, they had to work for it and earn it and rely solely upon their skills.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I'm well aware of the visual non-spectacularity of the sport. I know in competitions you have to do things a certain way just to get the job done without much concern for how exciting the match looks visually. That's not really my gripe although it may seem like it.

It's just that nothing happened and nobody took any chances. These guys train all day every day, why not take chances? In fact if you train that much, why is it even considered "taking a chance?" Would it give one of the competitors that much space to finish a sweep or let the guy on top pass? If that happened then we'd see who the superior grappler is, at least positionally for that moment. If the guy on top passed, is the guy on bottom really that insecure in his game that he believes he wouldn't be able to escape and vice versa?

Just some of the thoughts that ran through my head as I watched.

What do you mean by 'take a chance'? I think a lot of top guys take chances all the time. A good example was Mendes going for Cobrinha's arm instead of the pass points at the last Mundials. That was definitely taking a chance.

But if by 'taking a chance' you mean 'do something stupid with 0% chance of success in an equal position against another one of the best people in the world so that ignorant spectators with no attention span won't get bored', which is what I'm guessing you mean, then I beg to disagree. In some of those positions these guys are so good that neither guy is likely to get an opening to do something, so the position is going to remain really tense and not a lot of obvious action is going to happen. Some positions are a whirlwind, some are trench warfare. If you stick with grappling for a while you're come to appreciate both (assuming you train).

 

[He Man]

What do you mean by 'take a chance'? I think a lot of top guys take chances all the time. A good example was Mendes going for Cobrinha's arm instead of the pass points at the last Mundials. That was definitely taking a chance.

What I mean is it appears people do not try to improve their position. It was a draw as far as my opinion goes and nobody "took a chance" to either sweep the person on top and the guy on top didn't really attempt to pass. They just stayed in the same position the entire duration of the match. Forget the fact that it was boring, but these guys dedicate their lives and train 24/7 just to stay in the same exact position for 6 minutes? That's it? And the ref. gave it to the guy on top who couldn't pass and he was super excited for some reason? IMO he didn't accomplish nor did he do anything worthy of that response :icon_neut

But if by 'taking a chance' you mean 'do something stupid with 0% chance of success in an equal position against another one of the best people in the world so that ignorant spectators with no attention span won't get bored', which is what I'm guessing you mean, then I beg to disagree.

That's not at all what I mean, which is why I wrote what I wrote in the post you've quoted from.

My gripe is not with "Oh that person won with an Americana, how boring and un-flashy" but more with the fact that nothing happened and these guys would rather stall it out in the same position than actually grapple with each other.

If they didn't stall, what would happen? Would one guy have just enough room to pass? If the guy passed, then he was the better grappler. I feel like nothing notable happened, that any recreational grappler can go in there and stall like that too. I don't see what makes them competition superstars over an average joe who trains 2x a week I guess.

 

[muaythaitechniq]

Yes, the only one.

 

[deadlizard]

That means Ryron's defense and escapes were better than Andre's offense and positional dominance - in other words Ryron is just better. Towards the end Andre was stalling out and super gassed. I'm sure he would've been submitted had the match lasted another 5 minutes.




I agree, I think that is my whole point. Not just because there was action, but because both are confident in their BJJ and it shows. They truly fought. Even though no one won, they didn't (or couldn't) win based on exploitation of the system, they had to work for it and earn it and rely solely upon their skills.

Hey y'all! Gracie Academy nuthugger here!

 

[snoop dogg***]

At least they're doing something constructive with theyre lives. Aesthetically Boring? Maybe. But for youbto call it worthless is insulting. Think before you post

 

[bradlabo]

With every post it is more obvious that he is a troll.

 

[Uchi Mata]

What I mean is it appears people do not try to improve their position. It was a draw as far as my opinion goes and nobody "took a chance" to either sweep the person on top and the guy on top didn't really attempt to pass. They just stayed in the same position the entire duration of the match. Forget the fact that it was boring, but these guys dedicate their lives and train 24/7 just to stay in the same exact position for 6 minutes? That's it? And the ref. gave it to the guy on top who couldn't pass and he was super excited for some reason? IMO he didn't accomplish nor did he do anything worthy of that response :icon_neut



That's not at all what I mean, which is why I wrote what I wrote in the post you've quoted from.

My gripe is not with "Oh that person won with an Americana, how boring and un-flashy" but more with the fact that nothing happened and these guys would rather stall it out in the same position than actually grapple with each other.

If they didn't stall, what would happen? Would one guy have just enough room to pass? If the guy passed, then he was the better grappler. I feel like nothing notable happened, that any recreational grappler can go in there and stall like that too. I don't see what makes them competition superstars over an average joe who trains 2x a week I guess.

You're missing my point...they're not stalling (usually). They're both working towards stuff, but it's subtle. If you go for a sweep when my balance is good, I'll pass. If you try to pass when I have decent position in guard, I'll sweep you. There's a difference between stalling and waiting for a chance. You make very small movements without giving anything up, and you try to find a hole in your opponent's reactions. It's not always obvious, but I've definitely had matches that were like that especially if closed guard is involved.

And for the record, you or I or really anyone on this board couldn't stall against someone like Marcelo Garcia even if we wanted to. He could do what he wanted when he wanted, because he's that good.

 

[Uchi Mata]

That means Ryron's defense and escapes were better than Andre's offense and positional dominance - in other words Ryron is just better. Towards the end Andre was stalling out and super gassed. I'm sure he would've been submitted had the match lasted another 5 minutes.

Odd you'd be a Ryron fan given that all he did for most of that match was stall. Given that you've made a ludicrous suggestion that Ryron is better than Andre because he laid on his back for 20 minutes, I conclude that you're a troll.

 

[SUPERGRAPPLER]

I'm not crazy about competing but I do it because I know it's good for my overall Jiujitsu training. I'll just say that it is great to do every now and then, but it's only a small part of what Jiujitsu is about.

 

[TheSubmissionCh]

Certainly there are others that feel like competitions are worthless. No one forces you to compete or watch competitions. I tend to think that I personally try to engage and therefore am one half of exciting matches and that many of the finishes I capture from competition are really exciting. Some may not feel the same and that is fine. No one forces you to feel a certain way either. - E

 

[taylonr]

I'm sure he would've been submitted had the match lasted another 5 minutes.

That's a false metric, though. They knew the rules of the match going in, namely that it was a single 20 minute round, submission only. I don't now how either of these guys approached their training, but I have to imagine at the 15 minute mark if Galvao knew it was another 10 or 15 minutes, he might have done some things to conserve energy. Instead, he knew it was only another 5 and it was "You have to submit to win."

It would be like saying "If bowling had 13 frames, I would have gotten a 300."

 

[He Man]

Odd you'd be a Ryron fan given that all he did for most of that match was stall. Given that you've made a ludicrous suggestion that Ryron is better than Andre because he laid on his back for 20 minutes, I conclude that you're a troll.

Well I'm not anyone's nuthugger, I'm just calling it as I see it. As I see it may not be actually what it is, but Ryron wasn't just laying on his back, was he? He was actually escaping everything.

 

[He Man]

At least they're doing something constructive with theyre lives. Aesthetically Boring? Maybe. But for youbto call it worthless is insulting. Think before you post

I'm not exactly saying that it is worthless, I'm saying I feel like it is. At least the point system, which proves nothing at the end of the day, as far as I can tell.

 

[He Man]

That's a false metric, though. They knew the rules of the match going in, namely that it was a single 20 minute round, submission only. Instead, he knew it was only another 5 and it was "You have to submit to win."

Except he didn't pull off any of the submissions that he attempted. Perhaps Ryron's strategy was tire Galvao out first and then attack. This is a viable tactic, is it not?

I didn't really want to turn this into a Galvao vs Ryron thread, it doesn't really matter who won or who's better there. My point is that they both attempted/escaped/got position and basically they both just fought. Not one or the other just stayed in one position the whole time and relied on the holes in the points system to help them get a win.

 

[ozyabbas]

Points show positional dominance which is just as important as submissions in my book.

 

[He Man]

Certainly there are others that feel like competitions are worthless. No one forces you to compete or watch competitions. I tend to think that I personally try to engage and therefore am one half of exciting matches and that many of the finishes I capture from competition are really exciting. Some may not feel the same and that is fine. No one forces you to feel a certain way either. - E

Thanks for your response. Of course no one is forcing me, but I want to understand the concept of competition under these rules for myself, because as I've already stated, I do in fact want to compete more often. It's just that it feels like I'm paying money for nothing. I don't feel that I'm actually learning anything from these experiences, whether I win or lose.

When I win, I feel like I didn't do anything to deserve the win. Basically it's the other guy defeating himself under this point system by going to his back and pulling guard for example, and sometimes I'll get points for a "take down" and if the match doesn't progress past that it feels like a cheap win. Otherwise had I engaged more and tried to pass, I probably would've gotten choked up or submitted in the other guy's much more technical guard. Yet, I still won under the point system and I am the much more horrible BJJ practitioner lol.

 

[bradlabo]

Except he didn't pull off any of the submissions that he attempted. Perhaps Ryron's strategy was tire Galvao out first and then attack. This is a viable tactic, is it not?

I didn't really want to turn this into a Galvao vs Ryron thread, it doesn't really matter who won or who's better there. My point is that they both attempted/escaped/got position and basically they both just fought. Not one or the other just stayed in one position the whole time and relied on the holes in the points system to help them get a win.

You are contradicting yourself. Galvao forced Ryron to escape, is Ryron taking a chance escaping? No, he is surviving. Is Galvao taking chances by passing and attempting subs?

You are a troll trying to stir up an old arguement. If you think competing is worthless stop watching it and never compete. Then watch everyone in your gym surpass you becasue you don't challenge yourself.

 

[He Man]

You are contradicting yourself. Galvao forced Ryron to escape, is Ryron taking a chance escaping? No, he is surviving. Is Galvao taking chances by passing and attempting subs?

You are a troll trying to stir up an old arguement. If you think competing is worthless stop watching it and never compete. Then watch everyone in your gym surpass you becasue you don't challenge yourself.

Please refer to post #37.

 

[snoop dogg***]

I'm not exactly saying that it is worthless, I'm saying I feel like it is. At least the point system, which proves nothing at the end of the day, as far as I can tell.

You say you think it's worthless in the thread title. Points are based on dominating positions. Takedowns mount and side control are worthless? No immobilizations are part of jiu jitsu too. Not just subs.