Regimen Alexander Karelin - Resistance Bands?

[$uperman]

edit.

 

[Miiiiiiighty]

Karelin was a beast .

I would like to see his complete training routine .

 

[period]

My apologies for digging out this old thread, but I may have a few constructive things to add. I have grown up wrestling in Germany and Austria, where basically every second guy you meet on the mat comes from the former Eastern Block. I kept hearing stories about how great Karelin was, and back in 2010 even met an older wrestler – incidentally also named Alexander – who claimed he had trained together with Karelin back when both were in the army (the ages would match). That guy claimed he had never seen Karelin touch a weight in that time, but he was always using bands, so that’s what he used to keep fit as well. I was outlifting everyone on the team at that time despite being a welterweight, which he thought was very funny, partly because he was still beating the crap out of me on the mat. He said that instead, I should use bands and do things like “a million arm drags”. Convinced by the evidence, I followed his example, and up to now, I prioritize band work over everything else. Later, I had a Dagestani coach (his name won’t tell you anything, but he used to coach Dauren Kurugliev as a youth, before he moved from Derbent to Machatschkala). That coach also told me that a wrestler’s job is to “move people, not weights” (he was a big fan of bodyweight exercises like bridge spins, rope climbs and partner drills such as recovering from a bad shot with maximum counterpressure, as well as drilling techniques with really high reps – he said 800 reps of your favourite takedown are a good number to shoot for in a session), and that a resistance band is the single most important training tool a wrestler could own. I have to admit I still lift some weights almost every day (old habits are hard to break), but I limit myself mostly to high rep squats (bodyweight or less on the bar, or fireman’s carry squats with a partner if I can find one that doesn’t start complaining after 40 reps) and see-saw presses with 24 and 32 kg KBs.

During lockdown in 2020, I got bored and decided to start writing a book on band training for grapplers, just writing down my experiences, as well as the sources and videos I had come across. You can check it out for free here (no strings attached, I wrote this for fun and don’t sell anything): https://archive.org/details/john-flais-where-the-rubber-hits-the-mat-protoversion-1 There is also a condensed version for people with shorter attention spans https://archive.org/details/john-flais-where-the-rubber-hits-the-mat-short, and if reading isn’t your thing, I also made a monstrous youtube playlist that I keep updating periodically:

If you have any questions on the subject, I would be happy to answer them. I should add that a number of the links I put in the book aren’t active anymore, and the market for grappling-specific resistance bands has expanded significantly – Dopamineo now sponsors almost every top international player, and some new companies such as Willpower Bands have hit the scene. I may have to write a revised version of my books some time in the future

In the meantime, a few more sources on Karelin’s use of bands have surfaced. Here is a lengthy clip of a seminar he did a couple years back for youth wrestlers. My Russian is unfortunately very rudimentary (I had Russian coaches and training partners and can say things like “Hi, everything ok”, “have a nice evening”, “thanks for the tip” or “sorry I broke your nose” – you know, basic wrestling etiquette – and follow along simple technique explanations, but that’s about it), but with the help of the subtitles I managed to catch the gist of what he says. The most important points are that you should use a band that you can use for at least 10 minutes straight, so one that is not too strong, and that ideally, you do all your exercises moving because you don’t stand still in a match either:

 

[Deleted member 609094]

ttt

Ttt

 

[Devil's_Advocate]

My apologies for digging out this old thread, but I may have a few constructive things to add. I have grown up wrestling in Germany and Austria, where basically every second guy you meet on the mat comes from the former Eastern Block. I kept hearing stories about how great Karelin was, and back in 2010 even met an older wrestler – incidentally also named Alexander – who claimed he had trained together with Karelin back when both were in the army (the ages would match). That guy claimed he had never seen Karelin touch a weight in that time, but he was always using bands, so that’s what he used to keep fit as well. I was outlifting everyone on the team at that time despite being a welterweight, which he thought was very funny, partly because he was still beating the crap out of me on the mat. He said that instead, I should use bands and do things like “a million arm drags”. Convinced by the evidence, I followed his example, and up to now, I prioritize band work over everything else. Later, I had a Dagestani coach (his name won’t tell you anything, but he used to coach Dauren Kurugliev as a youth, before he moved from Derbent to Machatschkala). That coach also told me that a wrestler’s job is to “move people, not weights” (he was a big fan of bodyweight exercises like bridge spins, rope climbs and partner drills such as recovering from a bad shot with maximum counterpressure, as well as drilling techniques with really high reps – he said 800 reps of your favourite takedown are a good number to shoot for in a session), and that a resistance band is the single most important training tool a wrestler could own. I have to admit I still lift some weights almost every day (old habits are hard to break), but I limit myself mostly to high rep squats (bodyweight or less on the bar, or fireman’s carry squats with a partner if I can find one that doesn’t start complaining after 40 reps) and see-saw presses with 24 and 32 kg KBs.

During lockdown in 2020, I got bored and decided to start writing a book on band training for grapplers, just writing down my experiences, as well as the sources and videos I had come across. You can check it out for free here (no strings attached, I wrote this for fun and don’t sell anything): https://archive.org/details/john-flais-where-the-rubber-hits-the-mat-protoversion-1 There is also a condensed version for people with shorter attention spans https://archive.org/details/john-flais-where-the-rubber-hits-the-mat-short, and if reading isn’t your thing, I also made a monstrous youtube playlist that I keep updating periodically:

If you have any questions on the subject, I would be happy to answer them. I should add that a number of the links I put in the book aren’t active anymore, and the market for grappling-specific resistance bands has expanded significantly – Dopamineo now sponsors almost every top international player, and some new companies such as Willpower Bands have hit the scene. I may have to write a revised version of my books some time in the future

In the meantime, a few more sources on Karelin’s use of bands have surfaced. Here is a lengthy clip of a seminar he did a couple years back for youth wrestlers. My Russian is unfortunately very rudimentary (I had Russian coaches and training partners and can say things like “Hi, everything ok”, “have a nice evening”, “thanks for the tip” or “sorry I broke your nose” – you know, basic wrestling etiquette – and follow along simple technique explanations, but that’s about it), but with the help of the subtitles I managed to catch the gist of what he says. The most important points are that you should use a band that you can use for at least 10 minutes straight, so one that is not too strong, and that ideally, you do all your exercises moving because you don’t stand still in a match either:

Thanks for posting.

I understand what he's saying from the couple minutes I watched so far.

He spoke about being intentional in the way they should use bands. They shouldn't use them lackadaisically with noodle arms or tie them around their hands as he points out they can't tie themselves around their opponent.

The gist of what he's saying is that trainees should use very light bands and do a lot of sport specific training. He then demonstrates some various techniques a wrestler may use. He goes on to speak about using the bands in training between two wrestlers which allows for additional level of connectedness. As one wrestler moves back it forces the other wrestler forward. He demonstrated movements akin to some rehab.

He then went into performing deadlifts. His advice is fairly standard but I don't necessarily agree with everything he said. Hollow body upper back is very common in calisthenics (to shift focus between anterior and posterior chains) and some elite level deadlifters as an example use rounded upper back as well.

I suspect most of the advice is to build an extra level of endurance and strength endurance by incorporating band training into the SSP.

Such light band training will not do much to build strength or power in my opinion however I will take the word of a wrestling coach that it may hold benefits for sport specific training in wrestling.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

Bands dont provide the same benefits as free weights. People will say anything to sell you bands.

 

[period]

Thanks for posting.

I understand what he's saying from the couple minutes I watched so far.

He spoke about being intentional in the way they should use bands. They shouldn't use them lackadaisically with noodle arms or tie them around their hands as he points out they can't tie themselves around their opponent.

The gist of what he's saying is that trainees should use very light bands and do a lot of sport specific training. He then demonstrates some various techniques a wrestler may use. He goes on to speak about using the bands in training between two wrestlers which allows for additional level of connectedness. As one wrestler moves back it forces the other wrestler forward. He demonstrated movements akin to some rehab.

He then went into performing deadlifts. His advice is fairly standard but I don't necessarily agree with everything he said. Hollow body upper back is very common in calisthenics (to shift focus between anterior and posterior chains) and some elite level deadlifters as an example use rounded upper back as well.

I suspect most of the advice is to build an extra level of endurance and strength endurance by incorporating band training into the SSP.

Such light band training will not do much to build strength or power in my opinion however I will take the word of a wrestling coach that it may hold benefits for sport specific training in wrestling.

Thanks for the summary of your translation, that is indeed a bit further than I got. As for the deadlifts, I should point out how much he lets the knees travel forward, it's somewhere between a trap bar deadlift and a Hack squat; this again ties in with his wrestling advice, since in the beginning of this clip, he explains that a Greco wrestler should walk with the knees forward "like a Yeti", to make the opponent carry his weight:


As for the rest, yes, bands in wrestling are mostly used for SSP, to drill techniques with either less resistance or more resistance than an opponent provides (an example for the latter would be shooting double legs and lifting the opponent with a band looped around one's waist). The duration of ten minutes is not uncommon, although some coaches will tell you to work in rounds, just like in wrestling (e.g. 3 minutes - 4-5 if they want you to work on more endurance, 1-2 if they want you to push the pace).
If doing that, the band tension will be lower most of the time, around ten kilos of pull or so in most cases (since the bands are typically 5 m long, the resistance curve will be flatter; so you may have 8 kg of tension at the beginning of the movement, 12 at the end etc.); but then again, few people would be able to handle more continous force, especially not their grip and their shoulders - I don't know anyone who can do front raises with a pair of 10 kg dumbbells for 10 minutes straight. Some people like to alter the tension more; for example, they may pummel (back to the anchor) and start out close to the anchor, then will walk forward pummeling, until they reach full extension of the band (if you use a Dopamineo band for example, that is around 10 m, for most bands it'scloser to 5 m) or the maximum resistance they want to use, then go back, then forward again:

 

[period]

Bands dont provide the same benefits as free weights. People will say anything to sell you bands.

First, I am not saying that. I am saying they provide DIFFERENT benefits compared to free weights. And at least since Westside Barbell, we know the two can be combined, even at the same time.
In wrestling or grappling, you are working against the opponent's weight (vertical force), momentum (usually towards you) and his msucular force (wherever he directs that). Your task on the mat is to work through or around all three of these (or as my coach once aptly put it "Your job is to lift people, not weights.", and bands allow you to work all horizontal and circular motions better than weights. You can also double or triple the bands and do more conventional weight exercises, or use the bands in conjunction with weight; this way, you overload the top of the motion:

I have used this strategy to keep improving (not just maintaining) some of my lifts while traveling; the key is that you reach a similar amount of the resistance at your typical sticking point. When in doubt, take the band to the weightroom and alter sets of weights and band; you'll find the corresponding resistance quite quickly.
It goes without saying that bands are not meant to replace training partners, which you should be moving and lifting daily; I have started writing a little article on the wrestling schools from the former Eastern block and their training methods, maybe that will make the use of bands within those systems a bit more clear. To make the most important point in advance: how a certain exercise or tool is used within a certain system is often more important than what tool or exercise is used. Nor are bands meant to replace weights for an extended period of time if your goal is to first and foremost lift more. However, even Olympic lifters use bands. For example, Lasha Talakhadze has been seen using a 5 m band like the ones wrestlers use to warm up his shoulders before competition.

Second, I should point out that I am NOT selling bands, nor band-related products of any kind, and I am not intending to change that in the future. In fact, I was offered a sponsorship deal by a certain band company after they stumbled across the PDF linked above, and I declined, because I didn't want to be biased (full disclosure: I was also offered to test some products by another company and accepted because I liked the product I bought from them, but that's another matter since it benefits both them and me, and I have made no commitment to tell anyone their product is the best). I am pretty sure Karelin isn't selling bands either.
However, my coaches and me agree that they are immensely useful and versatile training tools, and I feel that the ways how they are used by Eastern block wrestlers, Japanese and Korean Judokas etc. all have their specific merits which are worth exploring. If you want to try them, go ahead. If not, please stick to whatever training method you think is best.

 

[Devil's_Advocate]

Thanks for the summary of your translation, that is indeed a bit further than I got. As for the deadlifts, I should point out how much he lets the knees travel forward, it's somewhere between a trap bar deadlift and a Hack squat; this again ties in with his wrestling advice, since in the beginning of this clip, he explains that a Greco wrestler should walk with the knees forward "like a Yeti", to make the opponent carry his weight:


As for the rest, yes, bands in wrestling are mostly used for SSP, to drill techniques with either less resistance or more resistance than an opponent provides (an example for the latter would be shooting double legs and lifting the opponent with a band looped around one's waist). The duration of ten minutes is not uncommon, although some coaches will tell you to work in rounds, just like in wrestling (e.g. 3 minutes - 4-5 if they want you to work on more endurance, 1-2 if they want you to push the pace).
If doing that, the band tension will be lower most of the time, around ten kilos of pull or so in most cases (since the bands are typically 5 m long, the resistance curve will be flatter; so you may have 8 kg of tension at the beginning of the movement, 12 at the end etc.); but then again, few people would be able to handle more continous force, especially not their grip and their shoulders - I don't know anyone who can do front raises with a pair of 10 kg dumbbells for 10 minutes straight. Some people like to alter the tension more; for example, they may pummel (back to the anchor) and start out close to the anchor, then will walk forward pummeling, until they reach full extension of the band (if you use a Dopamineo band for example, that is around 10 m, for most bands it'scloser to 5 m) or the maximum resistance they want to use, then go back, then forward again:

Exactly. It seemed he was outside his depth when talking about deadlifts. He was almost squatting it. You can use that form when handling super light weights because really it doesn't matter. But doing it that inefficiently will cost serious weight when done for a 1RM.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

First, I am not saying that. I am saying they provide DIFFERENT benefits compared to free weights. And at least since Westside Barbell, we know the two can be combined, even at the same time.
In wrestling or grappling, you are working against the opponent's weight (vertical force), momentum (usually towards you) and his msucular force (wherever he directs that). Your task on the mat is to work through or around all three of these (or as my coach once aptly put it "Your job is to lift people, not weights.", and bands allow you to work all horizontal and circular motions better than weights. You can also double or triple the bands and do more conventional weight exercises, or use the bands in conjunction with weight; this way, you overload the top of the motion:

I have used this strategy to keep improving (not just maintaining) some of my lifts while traveling; the key is that you reach a similar amount of the resistance at your typical sticking point. When in doubt, take the band to the weightroom and alter sets of weights and band; you'll find the corresponding resistance quite quickly.
It goes without saying that bands are not meant to replace training partners, which you should be moving and lifting daily; I have started writing a little article on the wrestling schools from the former Eastern block and their training methods, maybe that will make the use of bands within those systems a bit more clear. To make the most important point in advance: how a certain exercise or tool is used within a certain system is often more important than what tool or exercise is used. Nor are bands meant to replace weights for an extended period of time if your goal is to first and foremost lift more. However, even Olympic lifters use bands. For example, Lasha Talakhadze has been seen using a 5 m band like the ones wrestlers use to warm up his shoulders before competition.

Second, I should point out that I am NOT selling bands, nor band-related products of any kind, and I am not intending to change that in the future. In fact, I was offered a sponsorship deal by a certain band company after they stumbled across the PDF linked above, and I declined, because I didn't want to be biased (full disclosure: I was also offered to test some products by another company and accepted because I liked the product I bought from them, but that's another matter since it benefits both them and me, and I have made no commitment to tell anyone their product is the best). I am pretty sure Karelin isn't selling bands either.
However, my coaches and me agree that they are immensely useful and versatile training tools, and I feel that the ways how they are used by Eastern block wrestlers, Japanese and Korean Judokas etc. all have their specific merits which are worth exploring. If you want to try them, go ahead. If not, please stick to whatever training method you think is best.

I mean if you dont have access to free weights you are right but it is not nearly as efficient as free weight exercises. You can train all planes of motion with free weights as well. Trying to use 3 black bands to squat with is not remotely the same benefit as a free squat.

 

[period]

Exactly. It seemed he was outside his depth when talking about deadlifts. He was almost squatting it. You can use that form when handling super light weights because really it doesn't matter. But doing it that inefficiently will cost serious weight when done for a 1RM.

I think he rather did it on purpose. How Karelin lifted weights is much less documented, there are only a few clips where he does see-saw presses with two 32 kg (?) Kettlebells, alternate curls with them , and cheat curls in an over-under grip using something between 60 or 80 kg. "Bad form" is something you see athletes use a lot - I don't think I ever saw a single international competitor do a pull-up without kipping, and I would argue for the most part it's intentional. Funnily enough, I won a pull-up bet at our gym some time ago (I only had to do 25 reps to win, my record were 50) and a Russian teammate told a guy who was watching "You can see this guy has been around the block, just based on how he does pull-ups. He doesn't do them for strength, he does them for power."
However, it was reported that Karelin could do 10 reps in the Zercher deadlift with 200 kg, and seeing how reliably he was able to reverse-lift everyone at superheavyweight (135 kg limit back then, though people often cut down from 145) makes that seem not too far-fetched.

 

[period]

I mean if you dont have access to free weights you are right but it is not nearly as efficient as free weight exercises. You can train all planes of motion with free weights as well. Trying to use 3 black bands to squat with is not remotely the same benefit as a free squat.

I assume you are mainly referring to the part of using bands instead of weights. I would beg to differ here: first of all, if we define "efficient" as in "applicable to wrestling", then I would argue the most efficient way always has been and always will be wrestling. The other methods only support progress on the mat. Doing 800 shots to double legs with a resisting partner (a heavier and shorter one if necessary) will always trump heavy squats for specific leg strength. Your mileage may vary, but if I do squats, I do them with the intention to be able to do more low leg attacks in training, which in turn will give me better leg attacks in competition.
If "efficient" means "increases your powerlifting squat", then yes, bands alone are inherently less specific as a form of training. Plus it depends how you use them. I sometimes use setups similar to the one illustrated in the Willpower video above ("split loop"; although I will triple the band instead of doubling it) for regular squats. This means I have to power curl the bands to assume the bottom position, and I would say I have at least 60 kg of tension at the bottom - which is something you see people do much with regular bands, (it would mean folding them in half, stepping with one foot into each end of the folded loop). I use that setup for high reps (40 or more; I have no idea where my 1 RM is these days, and honestly don't care) to simulate squatting with a partner on my shoulders, where I do similar amounts of reps. Or you can do single leg squats such as pistols and shrimp squats and use the bands to provide extra tension - most people won't need much.

 

[Devil's_Advocate]

I think he rather did it on purpose. How Karelin lifted weights is much less documented, there are only a few clips where he does see-saw presses with two 32 kg (?) Kettlebells, alternate curls with them , and cheat curls in an over-under grip using something between 60 or 80 kg. "Bad form" is something you see athletes use a lot - I don't think I ever saw a single international competitor do a pull-up without kipping, and I would argue for the most part it's intentional. Funnily enough, I won a pull-up bet at our gym some time ago (I only had to do 25 reps to win, my record were 50) and a Russian teammate told a guy who was watching "You can see this guy has been around the block, just based on how he does pull-ups. He doesn't do them for strength, he does them for power."
However, it was reported that Karelin could do 10 reps in the Zercher deadlift with 200 kg, and seeing how reliably he was able to reverse-lift everyone at superheavyweight (135 kg limit back then, though people often cut down from 145) makes that seem not too far-fetched.

I don't think it's so much that they were intentionally doing certain lifts with bad form it is simply they didn't/don't know any better(to them that's the proper form). Many top level athletes succeed and excel in spite of their training not because of it. I saw some gimmick workout Lebron James posted and it was laughable.

Kipping pull ups have their place and may even be superior to regular pull ups as far as wrestling or sports performance due to the recruitment of the lower back.

My academy friend could do around 40 wide grip pull ups at around 160lb. I think that's the way to go for getting high reps. I am sadly horrible with wide grip. I don't know if I could do a single rep like that.

 

[period]

I don't think it's so much that they were intentionally doing certain lifts with bad form it is simply they didn't/don't know any better(to them that's the proper form). Many top level athletes succeed and excel in spite of their training not because of it. I saw some gimmick workout Lebron James posted and it was laughable.

Kipping pull ups have their place and may even be superior to regular pull ups as far as wrestling or sports performance due to the recruitment of the lower back.

My academy friend could do around 40 wide grip pull ups at around 160lb. I think that's the way to go for getting high reps. I am sadly horrible with wide grip. I don't know if I could do a single rep like that.

Personally, I doubt that the "bad form" (compared to the execution with a barbell) was due to ignorance in the case of Karelin; Russian wrestling coaches need to get a five year university degree in their sport to get a license, and Karelin has a PhD in exercise physiology himself (for what it's worth; he probably could have walked in there and told them he wanted the degree, and who would have been able to stop him? So I would assume it's intentional, but I can't prove that.

I wouldn't just limit the potential advantages of kipping pull-ups to the lower back; when you kip, you involve a lot of other muscle groups, including the abs and to some degree even the pecs - as I found out when I decided to break a "record" Ethan Reeves was talking about in an interview on a whim back in 2014 - he said his top wrestler was able to do 600 pull-ups in 63 minutes; I did the math and did 40 sets of 15 in 59 minutes. Man, was I sore all over the place afterwards (as they say, I'll do it again once I've recovered), but after a week of rest, it did allow me to smash through my pull-up plateau of 45 at the time.
For high-rep pull-ups, I favour a shoulder-width grip, anything else is just harder on the grip. Plus, whenever I'm pulling on the mat, I want my elbows close to the torso (unless we're talking underhooks - that's another matter). However, if we are talking specific pulling strength for grapplers, nothing beats rope climbing imho.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

I assume you are mainly referring to the part of using bands instead of weights. I would beg to differ here: first of all, if we define "efficient" as in "applicable to wrestling", then I would argue the most efficient way always has been and always will be wrestling. The other methods only support progress on the mat. Doing 800 shots to double legs with a resisting partner (a heavier and shorter one if necessary) will always trump heavy squats for specific leg strength. Your mileage may vary, but if I do squats, I do them with the intention to be able to do more low leg attacks in training, which in turn will give me better leg attacks in competition.
If "efficient" means "increases your powerlifting squat", then yes, bands alone are inherently less specific as a form of training. Plus it depends how you use them. I sometimes use setups similar to the one illustrated in the Willpower video above ("split loop"; although I will triple the band instead of doubling it) for regular squats. This means I have to power curl the bands to assume the bottom position, and I would say I have at least 60 kg of tension at the bottom - which is something you see people do much with regular bands, (it would mean folding them in half, stepping with one foot into each end of the folded loop). I use that setup for high reps (40 or more; I have no idea where my 1 RM is these days, and honestly don't care) to simulate squatting with a partner on my shoulders, where I do similar amounts of reps. Or you can do single leg squats such as pistols and shrimp squats and use the bands to provide extra tension - most people won't need much.

No It isn't. This is like saying doing 200,000 hindu squats is the equivalent of squatting with a barbell in any variation of a squat/lung. I wouldnt recommend training for a 1rm for wrestling either. This idea that sports specificity is all you need is completely wrong.

https://www.google.com/search?q=is+...hCTCBwkwLjEuNDEuMTLIB6YC&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

 

[period]

No It isn't. This is like saying doing 200,000 hindu squats is the equivalent of squatting with a barbell in any variation of a squat/lung. I wouldnt recommend training for a 1rm for wrestling either. This idea that sports specificity is all you need is completely wrong.

https://www.google.com/search?q=is+...hCTCBwkwLjEuNDEuMTLIB6YC&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

I have to politely disagree here: the shot IS what you are training, it IS part of the sport, which always has been and always will be more important than any kind of additional exercise (the job of any additional exercise is to make me better at it, not the other way around). After the shot, I get up with part or all of the weight of my opponent on top of me, so I get a realistic resistance, which can be increased beyond what I will have in competition by the use of a heavier partner, extra band resistance, deliberately recovering from a compromised position etc. If I do that, I can get in up to 800 reps in two hours, working both on my technique and train all the involved muscles. I know "sports specific strength training" has been critizized in the context of ball players etc, but swinging a weighted bat is a totally different matter; if anything, this approach could be compared to swimming against increased water resistance. On the other hand, if you do a powerlifting-style workout, you spend an hour there, will need to prioritize recovery afterwards, and still need to do the same amount of reps as me in order to get as proficient at the same technique.
BTW, Hindu squats are very much misunderstood: the Hindu squat mimics a leg attack in the sand pit, where you can't shoot due to the loose sand. So for the Hindu wrestlers back in the day, doing Hindu squats was like doing shots, and it worked in that context - even against people who were lifting a lot. However, it didn't work as well on the maps. It took the Indian team around 50 years to adjust their training strategy, but their freestyle team now trains very much like the rest of the wrestling world, including the use of resistance bands.

And for the record: a sports-specific approach to S&C cannot be proven "completely wrong", especially not when it keeps producing the bulk of the world's top wrestlers. As soon as AI manages to do the same, I might reconsider. Once again, AI is drawing the wrong conclusions here imho, and the prompts are off: the question is not whether resistance bands can REPLACE wrestling, the question is whether resistance bands AND wrestling AND bodyweight exercises etc. can suffice to produce international top athletes who beat the ones that train with weights. And we don't need AI to answer that, that's what the Olympics are for. I honestly cannot recall the last time there was a world or Olympic champ who had crazy strength numbers in lifting. It's not easy to compare "strength" in that context either - we have Snyder, who lifts weights a lot and seems to do S&C like a football player, but I wouldn't call his numbers crazy (I've trained with people who lift more, and they were nowhere near elite). Then, we have Sadulaev, who lifts noob weights but can do five one-arm pull-ups (kipping). Who is stronger? Snyder beat Sadulaev back in 2016, when the latter was new to the weight category, but got tech-falled by him not long after, and looked absolutely lost against Tazhudinov, who doesn't weight-train either.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

I have to politely disagree here: the shot IS what you are training, it IS part of the sport, which always has been and always will be more important than any kind of additional exercise (the job of any additional exercise is to make me better at it, not the other way around). After the shot, I get up with part or all of the weight of my opponent on top of me, so I get a realistic resistance, which can be increased beyond what I will have in competition by the use of a heavier partner, extra band resistance, deliberately recovering from a compromised position etc. If I do that, I can get in up to 800 reps in two hours, working both on my technique and train all the involved muscles. I know "sports specific strength training" has been critizized in the context of ball players etc, but swinging a weighted bat is a totally different matter; if anything, this approach could be compared to swimming against increased water resistance. On the other hand, if you do a powerlifting-style workout, you spend an hour there, will need to prioritize recovery afterwards, and still need to do the same amount of reps as me in order to get as proficient at the same technique.
BTW, Hindu squats are very much misunderstood: the Hindu squat mimics a leg attack in the sand pit, where you can't shoot due to the loose sand. So for the Hindu wrestlers back in the day, doing Hindu squats was like doing shots, and it worked in that context - even against people who were lifting a lot. However, it didn't work as well on the maps. It took the Indian team around 50 years to adjust their training strategy, but their freestyle team now trains very much like the rest of the wrestling world, including the use of resistance bands.

And for the record: a sports-specific approach to S&C cannot be proven "completely wrong", especially not when it keeps producing the bulk of the world's top wrestlers. As soon as AI manages to do the same, I might reconsider. Once again, AI is drawing the wrong conclusions here imho, and the prompts are off: the question is not whether resistance bands can REPLACE wrestling, the question is whether resistance bands AND wrestling AND bodyweight exercises etc. can suffice to produce international top athletes who beat the ones that train with weights. And we don't need AI to answer that, that's what the Olympics are for. I honestly cannot recall the last time there was a world or Olympic champ who had crazy strength numbers in lifting. It's not easy to compare "strength" in that context either - we have Snyder, who lifts weights a lot and seems to do S&C like a football player, but I wouldn't call his numbers crazy (I've trained with people who lift more, and they were nowhere near elite). Then, we have Sadulaev, who lifts noob weights but can do five one-arm pull-ups (kipping). Who is stronger? Snyder beat Sadulaev back in 2016, when the latter was new to the weight category, but got tech-falled by him not long after, and looked absolutely lost against Tazhudinov, who doesn't weight-train either.

It isn't about being the strongest powerlifter in sports it is about making that particular athlete stronger. A wrestler should not train like a powerlifter. Even Karelin is using free weights along while also using bands. I disagree with devilson about the form somewhat as form is not the particular reason for doing that exercise especially when he is not using the exercise to be judged on his lifting technique in a particular lift.

 

[period]

It isn't about being the strongest powerlifter in sports it is about making that particular athlete stronger. A wrestler should not train like a powerlifter. Even Karelin is using free weights along while also using bands. I disagree with devilson about the form somewhat as form is not the particular reason for doing that exercise especially when he is not using the exercise to be judged on his lifting technique in a particular lift.

The questions about becoming stronger are always resistance (not the tool used to create that resistance) along with reps (including sets and total volume) and time under tension.
So we can agree a wrestler shouldn't train like a powerlifter, and that he should become stronger, including but not necessarily limited to positions common in the sport.
The point we seem to disagree on is how that goal should ideally be reached. I am by no means saying that the ways I am describing are the only ones, but I am arguing they have been used successfully, and am trying to elaborate on some details I consider relevant.

 

[Devil's_Advocate]

Personally, I doubt that the "bad form" (compared to the execution with a barbell) was due to ignorance in the case of Karelin; Russian wrestling coaches need to get a five year university degree in their sport to get a license, and Karelin has a PhD in exercise physiology himself (for what it's worth; he probably could have walked in there and told them he wanted the degree, and who would have been able to stop him? So I would assume it's intentional, but I can't prove that.

I wouldn't just limit the potential advantages of kipping pull-ups to the lower back; when you kip, you involve a lot of other muscle groups, including the abs and to some degree even the pecs - as I found out when I decided to break a "record" Ethan Reeves was talking about in an interview on a whim back in 2014 - he said his top wrestler was able to do 600 pull-ups in 63 minutes; I did the math and did 40 sets of 15 in 59 minutes. Man, was I sore all over the place afterwards (as they say, I'll do it again once I've recovered), but after a week of rest, it did allow me to smash through my pull-up plateau of 45 at the time.
For high-rep pull-ups, I favour a shoulder-width grip, anything else is just harder on the grip. Plus, whenever I'm pulling on the mat, I want my elbows close to the torso (unless we're talking underhooks - that's another matter). However, if we are talking specific pulling strength for grapplers, nothing beats rope climbing imho.

You'd be amazed how many incompetent people there are walking around with advanced degrees. I have no clue what he knows or doesn't know. I will not 'read into' what I am seeing or just give him credit for a certain knowledge. I am only going of my experience and what limited information I saw in the video with the overt/clear explanation. I have met trainers and coaches who were completely clueless. There are likewise some absolutely brilliant minds with such advanced degrees. It comes down that many of such people are 'book smart' and have little practical experience training themselves or others. I have noticed there are increasingly more knowledgeable people in the last twenty years.

I understand when training athletes there's the element of balancing injury risk and making sport specific improvements. But there are way of doing it without hitting one rep maxes and likewise using ten pound resistance bands or using light dumbbells.

In the Soviet Union and Russia you can buy and get degrees without a problem. It makes the college scandal from a few years ago in the US seem laughable in comparison.

The way these high rep records are performed involves doing wide grip through limited ROM, bouncing at the bottom and getting chin just barely to or above the bar. It is not something I find particularly useful unless the only goal is to meet some minimum standard and achieve some number of reps to say you did X pull ups. I personally find calisthenics guys doing full controlled pull up reps for 10-20 reps far more impressive but this is of course a very subjective matter. It's similar to the people doing insane bench arch to move the weight three inches so they can claim a certain accomplishment.

I have personally found deadlifts incredibly beneficial at helping control people. In my opinion deadlifts may be one of the single most effective exercises for athletic and real world performance. If mobility and flexibility allow for it, Zercher Deadlifts are absolutely awesome for that.

It isn't about being the strongest powerlifter in sports it is about making that particular athlete stronger. A wrestler should not train like a powerlifter. Even Karelin is using free weights along while also using bands. I disagree with devilson about the form somewhat as form is not the particular reason for doing that exercise especially when he is not using the exercise to be judged on his lifting technique in a particular lift.

I don't know why you're disagreeing with me when you acknowledge it's less than ideal form for 1RM. I clearly stated the form is irrelevant when using such light resistance (bands) for some sport specific training. He reminds me of those job tutorials of lifting with your legs for heavy objects in real world.

It's akin to many Crossfitters using demonstrably poor form(borderline power curling their cleans) for their high rep weightlifting exercises but at light weights it likewise doesn't matter all that much. If the point is to train conditioning / muscle endurance then that form is probably sufficient.

 

[ROcknrollracing]

You'd be amazed how many incompetent people there are walking around with advanced degrees. I have no clue what he knows or doesn't know. I will not 'read into' what I am seeing or just give him credit for a certain knowledge. I am only going of my experience and what limited information I saw in the video with the overt/clear explanation. I have met trainers and coaches who were completely clueless. There are likewise some absolutely brilliant minds with such advanced degrees. It comes down that many of such people are 'book smart' and have little practical experience training themselves or others. I have noticed there are increasingly more knowledgeable people in the last twenty years.

I understand when training athletes there's the element of balancing injury risk and making sport specific improvements. But there are way of doing it without hitting one rep maxes and likewise using ten pound resistance bands or using light dumbbells.

In the Soviet Union and Russia you can buy and get degrees without a problem. It makes the college scandal from a few years ago in the US seem laughable in comparison.

The way these high rep records are performed involves doing wide grip through limited ROM, bouncing at the bottom and getting chin just barely to or above the bar. It is not something I find particularly useful unless the only goal is to meet some minimum standard and achieve some number of reps to say you did X pull ups. I personally find calisthenics guys doing full controlled pull up reps for 10-20 reps far more impressive but this is of course a very subjective matter. It's similar to the people doing insane bench arch to move the weight three inches so they can claim a certain accomplishment.

I have personally found deadlifts incredibly beneficial at helping control people. In my opinion deadlifts may be one of the single most effective exercises for athletic and real world performance. If mobility and flexibility allow for it, Zercher Deadlifts are absolutely awesome for that.



I don't know why you're disagreeing with me when you acknowledge it's less than ideal form for 1RM. I clearly stated the form is irrelevant when using such light resistance (bands) for some sport specific training. He reminds me of those job tutorials of lifting with your legs for heavy objects in real world.

It's akin to many Crossfitters using demonstrably poor form(borderline power curling their cleans) for their high rep weightlifting exercises but at light weights it likewise doesn't matter all that much. If the point is to train conditioning / muscle endurance then that form is probably sufficient.

well in that case alright then!