Aging bodybuilders

[Keith Wassung]

Devilson

Your last post needs to be stickied at a minimum and possibly enshrined in the hall of "100 greatest iron quotes of all time"

 

[enright3060]

bump

 

[DEVILsSON]

Keith thanks for the compliment...you're too kind....

 

[endlessscott]

I agree with Keith (who doesn't). DevilsSon, that was a good little observation, I'm happy I'm on your squat team.

*goes in to hug DS until whipped by a demon and forced under the bar again*

 

[Henry Swanson]

Yeah but what does Devilson know about lifting weights and conditioning?

*gets tasered*

 

[dfoster]

No I mean you and dfoster

Huh? I guess I missed this yesterday. OK, let's recap, I started a thread asking about the effect of having too much muscle mass using aging body builders as examples. People responded, some argue with each other, pretty much typical business. Then I objected to name calling in my thread and I get this response. Care to elaborate?

 

[dfoster]

My bodyfat was measured at 14 by a gym trainer with calipers....it was like 15-18 in various sections of the body...I had the same test this year and it was 5,5,8 ...I am 6'0 with 215 bw....

I am pretty sure if I didnt lift weights I would have been 150-160 lb with high bf....I am a naturally skinny guy...my dad was rail thin when he was my age...as was my uncle, grandpa, etc...

I completely agree about overall fitness ...that's why I started working on my weaknesses....it's good not only for overall health but also for improving performance...it's often much easier to improve overall performance by working weaknesses rather than strengths...conditioning, flexibility, agility, balance , etc will have as much if not more impact down the road for being healthy, staying active, and being able to function in day to day life for us as we age....

No doubt getting stronger by weight lifting is beneficial, I have been doing it for years. But what does this have to do with carrying around too much muscle mass and its effects on longevity? Ok, let's say in your example, you have 55lbs of added muscles by weight training. Is it necessarily better than having say only 20 or 30lbs of added muscles and just as strong? Everyone here knows how to train to be light and strong so you could probably be as strong being 20lb lighter by changing your routines - just a speculation (I think Pavel wrote a whole book devoted to being strong without being too heavy). So do you think carrying 55lb more than your original weight has any effects on your longevity? (I'm just asking because I don't know, I myself have 45lb of added muscles).

To recap, the issue I've been wanting to get at is adding too much bulk to a certain extreme (whether as a result of trying to be stronger or bodybuilding) could have a negative effect on overall health and longevity. And so far no one has countered that with their examples (ie. "I have 100lbs of added muscles and I finish the marathon even faster than before", "My cardio stays exactly the same or better after the added muscles, ect..." I would love to hear them, because that would give me inspirations in my own fitness life.

I am shocked barut has been this civil.....rip their hearts out and eat them....do it...do it now....

lol, what did I say about hatchet men (I'm only addressing the general audience)
I think the spirit of getting stronger goes far beyond physical strength, don't you think? It's about being strong in all areas, it's about personal strength, including character strength, representing yourself well, standing up for what you believe in, confronting things you disagree head on with strength and integrity.

So what would be a better demonstration of character strength, responding directly to the people who you disagree with exactly why you disagree with them and being ready to respond... or responding in an indirect way and calling on an enforcer to "rip their hearts out"? After all we're all on equal footing here on the Internet, why do we need to defer to an enforcer? Bear in mind, this is not about politics, moral values, life and death stuff, it's about disagreements on ... physical fitness so you can see where I'm coming from

 

[Keith Wassung]

I think you are confusing fitness with health, though they have a lot in common, they are not the same thing. Extremes in any discipline carry side effects that can affect longevity. Hardcore marathon runners and tri-athletes are not necessarily healthier because of their conditioning--and if you have been around those types, there bodies are beat to hell by the time they hit 40.

For health and longevity purposes, only a moderate amount of conditioning and resistance training is needed---now when you start pushing it, rather it be weights, martial arts, running, etc. you have to factor in the mental/spiritual health of pursuing and achieving goals as opposed to the one who does the minimum just for health purposes. I think its a trade-off and it tends to balance itself out over time

 

[dfoster]

I think you are confusing fitness with health, though they have a lot in common, they are not the same thing.

I know the difference, may be I didn't do a good job distinguishing them in my posts.

Extremes in any discipline carry side effects that can affect longevity. Hardcore marathon runners and tri-athletes are not necessarily healthier because of their conditioning--and if you have been around those types, there bodies are beat to hell by the time they hit 40.

For health and longevity purposes, only a moderate amount of conditioning and resistance training is needed---now when you start pushing it, rather it be weights, martial arts, running, etc. you have to factor in the mental/spiritual health of pursuing and achieving goals as opposed to the one who does the minimum just for health purposes. I think its a trade-off and it tends to balance itself out over time

True, too much endurance activities is not good for your health either.
On weight training .. I guess what I'm trying to get at is some practical limits. Let's say you're a powerlifter and you have been making great progress in strength gains for over 15 years. Your body mass has been increasing steadily, you're lean and you're now 60lbs heavier than before you started. If you keep going you could be 80lbs or even 100lbs over... should you start thinking "Uh oh, 60lbs is enough, I better try to taper out my weight gains..." or should you just keep going with no efforts to curb the weight gain?
A side note.. Ronnie Coleman even said he was stronger when he was younger, but he has much more muscle mass now... so I definitely think it's possible for lifters to get strong without gaining too much weights.

 

[dfoster]

I think its a trade-off and it tends to balance itself out over time

Oops, I forgot to address another point of your post, how does it balance itself out over time?..

Like if you're very fit strength-wise, although you might not be 'optimal' physically from a longevity stand point, the spiritual/mental gains you acquired in the process will compensate for the physical 'disadvantages' over time? Very interesting point, gotta be the first time I hear about it. Btw, great response, now if only I can people on here to do likewise

 

[Keith Wassung]

The trade-offs that I mentioned, are theoretical at best as it would be impossible to study it in any sort of accurate way.

Take a guy who weighs 185lbs and is stronger than average--he gets bit by the PL big and decides to purse "exteme strength" over the years he gains weight and strength and years later weighs 235lbs and is as strong as a moose--now he might have been "better" from purely a physical health/longevity stanpoint, but he loves being strong, its one of his passions, his excitement for it carries over into other areas of his life--and so its a trade-off, doing something you really enjoy and are passioniate about. This has to be a good thing, in terms of reducing stress and in general having a positive outlook on life. So the extra weight takes away a few points and the mental/attitude adds a few points.

You could also make a case that a heavily muscled man can withstand traumas and accidents a lot better than an average man. When I did clinical work, I used to see older guys ( in their 60's) who were heavily muscled, either from lifting or physical labor and their lower back was bothering them, so they would come see us--we we often find that their IVD was heavily damaged ( probably from the lifting/labor) but their back muscles were so large and strong that it protected the disc and the pain was hardly noticeable.

A guy who lifts and is stronger and has larger muscles will add more stress to their joints, but their skeletal structure should also be stronger due to the weights. They might have more joint stress that Joe average, but they are also using their joints on a regular basis, ir from doing full range of motion moves while Joe Average has horrible joints, because they rarely use them ( another case for doing full squats, even if only using bodyweight)

The marathon runner places an enormous stress on their hips, knees and back ( among other things) but their heart/lungs are so damn strong and well developed that they are able to withstand other adversities. Take professional athletes for example, we have seen many examples of pro football players being "paralyzed" on the field, and then like a year later they are walking again--why? it their athletic drive, their mental conditioning and to some degree the years of training have made their homeostatic chemistry much more efficient.

A lot of this is nothing more than observational theory on my part, I have read some articles and books on it, but as I said, it would be impossible to do a controlled study on this.

I can relate to the theme of this post as I am trying to reduce some of the weight I am carrying and I am pretty lean for a guy of my age and weight, but I think its time to shift gears from the pursuit of strength as the primary exercise objective to one that is shared with conditioning, flexibillity, speed and even balance.

keith

 

[DEVILsSON]

dfoster if you'd hang around the S/P forum more you'd know what I am or not about......also sometimes you have to decipher when someone is just joking around....

My primary goal has never been muscle but instead it was to get stronger and more athletic. So again at 6-7% bf and 215.....can I really lose 20 lb and be as strong? I dont think so...granted many of my numbers are not quite as high as they were when I limited cardio...but I still achieved 700 deadlift, 475 squat(soon to be higher)....425 bench, 280 push press, bw push up with extra 315lb, bw dip with extra 230, chin up with 145, i am also getting close to a one arm chin up atm...so I dont know...perhaps if I drop bw chin ups would become easier but other than that....i cant see myself lifting more weight.

also did I improve? well when I was younger at 14 I was on cross country/track and sucked.....granted I didnt know how to train and didnt have any passion for it...just did it to hang out with friends....but I can tell you for certainty that now I am MUCH better sprinter.....I can beat majority of in shape people in short distances....100 meters or so....I am also better in the mile, 2 miles, 3 miles, 4.5 miles ......now at 215 ....than at any point when i was younger...I can also jump more than a foot higher than at any point when I was lighter....

Also although I am pretty stiff...I am still more flexible as a result of lifting...and now trying to become even more flexible...

also like keith was saying....there are always tradeoffs....many hardcore runners mess up their joints beyond belief and have to have meniscus repairs, complete joint replacements, etc....so it's not like staying light in of itself is better....and better for what? body is a machine and adjusts to whatever reasonable demand you impose upon it....

 

[dfoster]

Thanks for the post. I appreciate it.

 

[bigconan]

Anybody with first hand knowledge of what kind of health a former bodybuilder has in his 50's and 60's? I know Arnold had his heart operations but I guess it was mostly due to steroids.
I'm looking for some info on the effects of carrying around too much muscles for one's frame. I always thought it's a little too much if you were 160lbs in high school but now walk around at 260lbs. Lean or not, your heart, lungs and joints were not designed for that weight. Granted the older generations were not as big but they're now in their 60's so we can get some rough ideas. I know Arnold was not the first generation because he had "idols" - any info on how those guys are living?

wrong...his heart condition was 100% genetics..his mom had the same problem...people really need to stop blaming steroids for everything..

 

[bigconan]

It depends on where you start and what your age is. 100lbs over a ten-fifteen year period is certainly doable if you start as a teen

not without steroids my friend...you might be able to gain half or less...but never 100lbs..how long you lift for has no baring on it.

 

[ASUThermo]

not without steroids my friend...you might be able to gain half or less...but never 100lbs..how long you lift for has no baring on it.

Solid post. Looking forward to Keith's response to this, he's been really active lately.

 

[CauseImbetta]

Anybody with first hand knowledge of what kind of health a former bodybuilder has in his 50's and 60's? I know Arnold had his heart operations but I guess it was mostly due to steroids.
I'm looking for some info on the effects of carrying around too much muscles for one's frame. I always thought it's a little too much if you were 160lbs in high school but now walk around at 260lbs. Lean or not, your heart, lungs and joints were not designed for that weight. Granted the older generations were not as big but they're now in their 60's so we can get some rough ideas. I know Arnold was not the first generation because he had "idols" - any info on how those guys are living?

1. Arnold had heart surgery due to a birth defect nothing to do with steroids. he actually successfully sued a paper who accused him of steroids due to his heart defect.

2. former bodybuilders are still alive and fine. the only problem is their backs and usually they need surgery like Ronnie Coleman. the problem is they did extreme strength training coupled with hypertrophy. Doron Yates etc are fine. Those that died like mazzarato overdid the juice and they knew that they would die anyway.Steroids enlargens the organs. Heart failure is the number one cause of death of steroid abusers.

3. you can do steroids under doctor supervision you'll be fine.

4. Having muscle is actually very healthy but overdoing it will put you in an early grave. Like with anything.