NBA ***2024 NBA Thread - Let The Games Begin***

Status
Not open for further replies.
Unknown Pleasures said:
A stye that both impacts the game tremendously and that you can viably win it all with. To me, he is in the camp of Allan Iverson and Russell Westbrook. Phenomenally talented players, can put up numbers and mad highlights, but needs to be "the guy" on the team to be happy, but doesn't really have the the efficiency, dominance, and decision making to go over the top of other great teams.

Happy to be proven wrong, but I just can't picture Ja leading a team to a championship, even with the right role players. He'd have to be on a team with other stars to have a chance IMO, and then would probably clash with them and have problems.
Click to expand...
AI never needed to be the "the guy" lol

have you seen the rosters he was on?

kid SPILLED WATER KEYBOARD FIX LATER
 
Unknown Pleasures said:
A stye that both impacts the game tremendously and that you can viably win it all with. To me, he is in the camp of Allan Iverson and Russell Westbrook. Phenomenally talented players, can put up numbers and mad highlights, but needs to be "the guy" on the team to be happy, but doesn't really have the the efficiency, dominance, and decision making to go over the top of other great teams.

Happy to be proven wrong, but I just can't picture Ja leading a team to a championship, even with the right role players. He'd have to be on a team with other stars to have a chance IMO, and then would probably clash with them and have problems.
Click to expand...

This line of thought worries me when it comes to Luka. His detractors love to compare him to guys like Westbrick and HardCAN. A stat monster who can't win. I just hope it doesn't play out like that. Luka never getting a ring would place him firmly at #1 for most talented players that never won.
 
MM808 said:
Agree somewhat but saying Iverson wasn’t championship material is wild
Click to expand...

I do often get the evil eye when talking about Iverson. I don't want to overweight a single data point, but what I think is pretty illustrative is looking at WS/48 which is highly correlated for MVP contention. Iverson is way way down the list of all time greats, even in his absolute prime his WS/48 was well below what the elite players would record. Iverson at best hit .190 Edit: I'm down the rabbit hole, his MVP year and wasn't even top 10.

Near the top today are the likes of Joke's averaged .300 over the past 4 years, and Embiid is up over .300 this year.

Westbrook is 170th at .138 (peaked at .245). Iverson 225th at .126.

I had no idea what Ja's would be, but not surprised to see its .119.
 
Last edited:
MusterX said:
This line of thought worries me when it comes to Luka. His detractors love to compare him to guys like Westbrick and HardCAN. A stat monster who can't win. I just hope it doesn't play out like that. Luka never getting a ring would place him firmly at #1 for most talented players that never won.
Click to expand...

Luka is still a baby in this league... the guy is 24 years old. And he's also never had much of a supporting cast. But he plays a more effective and intelligent brand of basketball, way better than Ja.
 
Croaker said:
AI never needed to be the "the guy" lol

have you seen the rosters he was on?

kid SPILLED WATER KEYBOARD FIX LATER
Click to expand...


He was super high usage and not particularly efficient. Scored a lot of points, but not a lot for the amount of shots he took If one wants to argue he didn't have to be the guy, but was the guy, it goes to show the basketball i.q. was sub-par. Which is what I'm saying, it wasn't championship basketball.

Sorry about your keyboard, glad it wasn't a cola.
 
Unknown Pleasures said:
I do often get the evil eye when talking about Iverson. I don't want to overweight a single data point, but what I think is pretty illustrative is looking at WS/48 which is highly correlated for MVP contention. Iverson is way way down the list of all time greats, even in his absolute prime his WS/48 was well below what the elite players would record. Iverson at best hit .190 Edit: I'm down the rabbit hole, his MVP year and wasn't even top 10.

Near the top today are the likes of Joke's averaged .300 over the past 4 years, and Embiid is up over .300 this year.

Westbrook is 170th at .138 (peaked at .245). Iverson 225th at .126.

I had no idea what Ja's would be, but not surprised to see its .119.
Click to expand...
If you want to base everything on that one stat and only his scoring then you do you lol
 
Unknown Pleasures said:
He was super high usage and not particularly efficient. Scored a lot of points, but not a lot for the amount of shots he took If one wants to argue he didn't have to be the guy, but was the guy, it goes to show the basketball i.q. was sub-par. Which is what I'm saying, it wasn't championship basketball.

Sorry about your keyboard, glad it wasn't a cola.
Click to expand...

His inefficiency was predicated on the fact others on the team weren't scorers. When he went to the nuggets that was a terrible fit for him too. While he had Carmelo could both win in ISO, they didn't have anyone else who was great off ball. It sucked. I don't think AI had a low basketball IQ, he was just ball dominant and had to make difficult shots due to the play style of the 76ers. AI used to be horribly overrated, now that everyone uses advanced analytics he's become super underrated. Every ball centric guard needs a big and a wing who can shoot. Ja will need the same.
 
Croaker said:
His inefficiency was predicated on the fact others on the team weren't scorers. When he went to the nuggets that was a terrible fit for him too. While he had Carmelo could both win in ISO, they didn't have anyone else who was great off ball. It sucked. I don't think AI had a low basketball IQ, he was just ball dominant and had to make difficult shots due to the play style of the 76ers. AI used to be horribly overrated, now that everyone uses advanced analytics he's become super underrated. Every ball centric guard needs a big and a wing who can shoot. Ja will need the same.
Click to expand...
His run to the finals and eventually losing to the Kobe Shaq Lakers was impressive seeing the names on that roster. Reminds me of some of the runs Lebron had in Cleveland with the shit rosters. They were just that good as the main leader but even they can’t work miracles against the elite deeper teams.
 
Croaker said:
His inefficiency was predicated on the fact others on the team weren't scorers. When he went to the nuggets that was a terrible fit for him too. While he had Carmelo could both win in ISO, they didn't have anyone else who was great off ball. It sucked. I don't think AI had a low basketball IQ, he was just ball dominant and had to make difficult shots due to the play style of the 76ers. AI used to be horribly overrated, now that everyone uses advanced analytics he's become super underrated. Every ball centric guard needs a big and a wing who can shoot. Ja will need the same.
Click to expand...

I shouldn't have said sub-par, that wasn't accurate. I feel (and always felt at the time) it wasn't above average enough to actually ever win a title, which is no small task. Another high usage player I'd also have zero faith in ever leading a team to a title would be Trae Young.

I find most people are Iverson stans so haven't noticed him being underted. But i think people in general overrate absolute statistics and underrate percentage/efficiency and per possession statistics. Basketball is a fun game that way, the offensive goal is maximize your team's output and make the true right play every time. Scoring 40 points isn't truly a good night at the office if you aren't maximizing overall team expected value. Wilt is the best example because it's really stark how much his numbers changed from being a less efficient scorer to an MVP caliber player by passing more. The whole hoopla of the 100 point game is kind of a circus thing really. He was way better the player when he scored considerably less and passed more. But basketball is fun that way - in hockey if a guy scores 5 goals one game he's the star and had a great game, same with baseball if you hit a bunch of home runs, but basketball players can really eat their teammate's lunches way more.
 
Unknown Pleasures said:
I shouldn't have said sub-par, that wasn't accurate. I feel (and always felt at the time) it wasn't above average enough to actually ever win a title, which is no small task. Another high usage player I'd also have zero faith in ever leading a team to a title would be Trae Young.

I find most people are Iverson stans so haven't noticed him being underted. But i think people in general overrate absolute statistics and underrate percentage/efficiency and per possession statistics. Basketball is a fun game that way, the offensive goal is maximize your team's output and make the true right play every time. Scoring 40 points isn't truly a good night at the office if you aren't maximizing overall team expected value. Wilt is the best example because it's really stark how much his numbers changed from being a less efficient scorer to an MVP caliber player by passing more. The whole hoopla of the 100 point game is kind of a circus thing really. He was way better the player when he scored considerably less and passed more. But basketball is fun that way - in hockey if a guy scores 5 goals one game he's the star and had a great game, same with baseball if you hit a bunch of home runs, but basketball players can really eat their teammate's lunches way more.
Click to expand...
If you look at the shots Iverson was taking, he was super efficient. When using efficiency metrics with Iverson you don't look at all the shots being similar between players. He made shots routinely that were insane. He just had to. He didn't really have a lot of options at his size.

Wilt is an overrated can. Anyone could average 50 ppg back then if you could dunk. I don't take that era very seriously.
 
Croaker said:
If you look at the shots Iverson was taking, he was super efficient. When using efficiency metrics with Iverson you don't look at all the shots being similar between players. He made shots routinely that were insane. He just had to. He didn't really have a lot of options at his size.

Wilt is an overrated can. Anyone could average 50 ppg back then if you could dunk. I don't take that era very seriously.
Click to expand...

I don't really look at efficiency from that perspective. Yes, AI could make incredible shots given his size, but those don't get bonus points on the scoreboard. But yes, he was incredible for his size.,
 
Unknown Pleasures said:
I don't really look at efficiency from that perspective. Yes, AI could make incredible shots given his size, but those don't get bonus points on the scoreboard. But yes, he was incredible for his size.,
Click to expand...
I'm not saying the difficulty makes them worth more, I am just saying the difficulty in which he had to make shots is insane. His efficiency would be way better in a league today where his speed could beat a guy off the dribble and he wouldn't be driving into 4 dudes stacked up in the paint. Guys would actually body up on AI because he was so small. Bigs back then didnt have to be mobile, you just needed to be a big plodder and protect the rim.
 
Mavs/Flerps battling it out, very physical game.
 
Jesus, 41-38 in this Kings Celtics game after the 1st quarter and the defense hasn't even been bad. Just crazy 3 point shooting.
 
Derrick Jones Jr. just blocked Klaw's 3. Wild game. Mavs are competitive despite Kyrie and DLive being out for extended games.
 
Defense like a revolving door in the 4th during crunch time again smh. If they could keep up the good defense for a whole game, they can actually beat a good team. Thought they had it tonight but nope, fooled again.
 
MM808 said:
Defense like a revolving door in the 4th during crunch time again smh. If they could keep up the good defense for a whole game, they can actually beat a good team. Thought they had it tonight but nope, fooled again.
Click to expand...

You realize the Mavs are playing down 2 starters plus rotational players, right? They were down 22 and battled back to actually have a 1 point lead with 5 minutes left in the game.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,280,174
Messages
58,263,466
Members
175,986
Latest member
BloodandBeer

Share this page

Back
Top