Elections 2016 Democratic South Carolina Primary Thread

[panamaican]

It'd be interesting to see if Sanders even tried to court the black vote. About the only corporate media that would work might be BET, but the best way to win an election is a great ground game. Sanders should have had volunteers working black communities all over South Carolina first, then other states, handing out fliers showing him getting arrested (especially contrasted with Hillary's volunteer work with Barry Goldwater, someone who was very anti-civil rights).

The majority of the black electorate wasn't even born when Sanders was on the ground, fighting for their rights. There's no way they could know unless they majored in Poly Sci. This is a failure of his campaign for not targeting the one demographic that could tilt the field in his favor, had he just put in the effort. But it's too late now, and the black vote is going to ensure Hillary crushes Bernie.

Bernie's real problem is that you can't point to anything he's said in support of the black population in the 20 years preceding his candidacy. Hilary can at least point to her associations with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama and leach off their relationships with black America.

I truly don't can't remember Bernie Sanders coming up in anything race related, except now that people are pulling up 40 year old actions (of course, I generally avoid all things Democrat). In all sincerity, what has he done since Bill's 1st term that would shore up his bonafides in black America?

 

[in the]

Wait a minute. You replied to this:

"I think it's weird that anyone would even think that's relevant. People don't vote to reward people for being good guys. They vote to advance their own interests, and Sanders didn't make that case."

with this:

"You'll have to speak clearer, I couldn't hear you over the sound of Hillary's balls in your mouth."

And I'm the one who is either very socially awkward or a troll? WTF? If you go around acting like that in real life, I'm not sure how you're still alive.



That's never actually happened. From what I can see, you're just a really nasty individual who doesn't discuss real issues.



I read your post, and I responded to it. The notion that all Bernie has to get to get black votes is get the message out there that he marched in the 1960s is obviously wrong and weirdly common.



Sure, it's condescending. I mean, look, at this point the race is pretty much over anyway so whatever. Just saying that if Bernie wants black votes, the way to get them is to show why he's the better candidate today--why he's going to advance their interests better than other candidates would. The same way to get votes from anyone. The stuff about blacks not watching the news except on BET or something is silly and insulting.

Jack, even your victimization is slipping. Are multiple people controlling your account and you can't remember who you've trolled at this point?

 

[in the]

Bernie's real problem is that you can't point to anything he's said in support of the black population in the 20 years preceding his candidacy. Hilary can at least point to her associations with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama and leach off their relationships with black America.

I truly don't can't remember Bernie Sanders coming up in anything race related, except now that people are pulling up 40 year old actions (of course, I generally avoid all things Democrat). In all sincerity, what has he done since Bill's 1st term that would shore up his bonafides in black America?

I agree, which is why I said he needed to get his record out because Hillary is winning the recency effect. He needed that to be front and center of his southern strategy. It honestly baffles me why he didn't do this. Here's a man who got arrested fighting for civil rights and I've heard more from Ben Carson begging to be attacked in debates more than I have Sanders bringing up his record. Even if it was 40 years ago, it's more than anything Hillary has done, which should have been the knockout blow but Bernie won't do it because he doesn't want to run a "negative" campaign.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Jack, even your victimization is slipping. Are multiple people controlling your account and you can't remember who you've trolled at this point?

I haven't trolled anyone, but whatever. Second time you ignored substance to make a completely inappropriate personal attack. I don't know what the heck is wrong you.

I'm actually kind of fascinated. What I get out of this place is a chance to work out ideas, see my own maybe challenged, since I'm here, if people stumble over something that's in my area of expertise, I can contribute positively by correcting the record, etc. What does someone like you who just posts that kind of nastiness get? Just work out your anger at liberals or something?

 

[Possum Jenkins]

The Clintons have spent decades courting the black vote. I think it started with Bill moving his office to Harlem after his 2nd term and then suddenly becoming way more liberal than when he was in office.

They've been some of the most recognizable faces of the Democratic Party for the past quarter century and blacks are 85-90% Democrat. Even in 2008, it took Obama a while to wrestle the black vote away from Hillary. THAT's how strong they are.

25 years dead center of the Democratic establishment > 3 months in the national spotlight and 40+ years of being in the margins

 

[wandiswar]

I haven't trolled anyone, but whatever. Second time you ignored substance to make a completely inappropriate personal attack. I don't know what the heck is wrong you.

He's from Tennessee how smart can he be?

 

[VivaRevolution]

Bernie's real problem is that you can't point to anything he's said in support of the black population in the 20 years preceding his candidacy. Hilary can at least point to her associations with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama and leach off their relationships with black America.

I truly don't can't remember Bernie Sanders coming up in anything race related, except now that people are pulling up 40 year old actions (of course, I generally avoid all things Democrat). In all sincerity, what has he done since Bill's 1st term that would shore up his bonafides in black America?

Lol, bernie was out railing against the Jim crow war on drugs in the media, while being a senator from Vermont with a 4% black population. He supported Jesse Jackson for president, just...............eh...

 

[MicroBrew]

Bernie's real problem is that you can't point to anything he's said in support of the black population in the 20 years preceding his candidacy. Hilary can at least point to her associations with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama and leach off their relationships with black America.

I truly don't can't remember Bernie Sanders coming up in anything race related, except now that people are pulling up 40 year old actions (of course, I generally avoid all things Democrat). In all sincerity, what has he done since Bill's 1st term that would shore up his bonafides in black America?

And both Hillary and Bill resorted to racist dog whistles in 2008 to attract White dems.

Hillary is fake through and through, she only now feigns some sympathy for the Blacks concerend about police violence by associating herself with some of the moms of the Black men killed by cops.

Bill Clinton's 1994 crime bill has been criticised by Blacks for making things worse in their community. as Fran Leibowitz said on Maher's show recently , the Clintons are righwingers who moved the Dem party to the right.

Hillary is a shill for Wallstreet and corporate America, the same folks who have undermined Black working class with their gungho support for outsourcing.

 

[Octavian]

The Clintons have spent decades courting the black vote. I think it started with Bill moving his office to Harlem after his 2nd term and then suddenly becoming way more liberal than when he was in office.

They've been some of the most recognizable faces of the Democratic Party for the past quarter century and blacks are 85-90% Democrat. Even in 2008, it took Obama a while to wrestle the black vote away from Hillary. THAT's how strong they are.

25 years dead center of the Democratic establishment > 3 months in the national spotlight and 40+ years of being in the margins plus 3 months of being in the national spotlight

This... people have to stop and realize just how much ground work the Clintons have done for decades.

 

[speakhandsforme]

If Sanders wants to cut into Hillary's stronghold on the black vote, he needs to go negative. It's inexcusable that he hasn't called Clinton out on the topics of prison reform and, specifically, policing policy.

 

[Quipling]

If Sanders wants to cut into Hillary's stronghold on the black vote, he needs to go negative. It's inexcusable that he hasn't called Clinton out on the topics of prison reform and, specifically, policing policy.

I don't think calling out on the matter of prison reform necessarily entails going negative per se - at least of the nasty campaigning that is what he really seems to be trying to avoid. The current Clinton approach of "Here is your old position" should be fine, and is one he has taken in places.

And as a Clinton supporter, I believe that criminal justice/poverty is really where her biggest fuckups lie. A lot of her later issues only became clearly issues after the fact, or generally tracked Dem positions of the time, so they get more leeway. The tough on crime positions have less of a defense from this angle.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

If Sanders wants to cut into Hillary's stronghold on the black vote, he needs to go negative. It's inexcusable that he hasn't called Clinton out on the topics of prison reform and, specifically, policing policy.

Too principled. Bernie's truly a once in a generation politician.

I'd honestly be a little disappointed if he went negative. Not big on moral victories but losing while being honest does have its merits.

 

[jackasa]

No way Bernie was gonna win in SC. It takes too long to get name recognition for onle a few months vs Clinton. I wish he had ran a year earlier to get his name out there and explain how bad Clinton's policies really are for blacks. Not enough time to educate the old.

 

[speakhandsforme]

I don't think calling out on the matter of prison reform necessarily entails going negative per se - at least of the nasty campaigning that is what he really seems to be trying to avoid. The current Clinton approach of "Here is your old position" should be fine, and is one he has taken in places.

And as a Clinton supporter, I believe that criminal justice/poverty is really where her biggest fuckups lie. A lot of her later issues only became clearly issues after the fact, or generally tracked Dem positions of the time, so they get more leeway. The tough on crime positions have less of a defense from this angle.

Yeah, I think criminal justice is substantively her worst area. I think her hawkishness in regard to foreign policy is absolutely reprehensible, but voters don't care about random brown people in Timbuktu.

What is your rationale for supporting Clinton over Sanders?

 

[in the]

I haven't trolled anyone, but whatever. Second time you ignored substance to make a completely inappropriate personal attack. I don't know what the heck is wrong you.

I'm actually kind of fascinated. What I get out of this place is a chance to work out ideas, see my own maybe challenged, since I'm here, if people stumble over something that's in my area of expertise, I can contribute positively by correcting the record, etc. What does someone like you who just posts that kind of nastiness get? Just work out your anger at liberals or something?

Wow, you're deep into victimization this time.

There's no point in making salient points to you. You will ignore them, throw out insults, get one back, and play the eternal victim as you parse and quibble things into a never ending war of attrition. It's not your points I care about. It's you. We've been down this road many times and the fact you can't remember it tells me you have more than one person controlling your account or you get super high on medication before you post and it makes you forgetful and vaginally emotional.

Your game gets old after awhile.

He's from Tennessee how smart can he be?

Evidently a million times smarter than someone whose only point is arguing about another person's geographical location.

 

[wandiswar]

Evidently a million times smarter than someone whose only point is arguing about another person's geographical location.

Slovenia has a better Education system then Tennessee.

 

[wandiswar]

The Clintons have spent decades courting the black vote. I think it started with Bill moving his office to Harlem after his 2nd term and then suddenly becoming way more liberal than when he was in office.

They've been some of the most recognizable faces of the Democratic Party for the past quarter century and blacks are 85-90% Democrat. Even in 2008, it took Obama a while to wrestle the black vote away from Hillary. THAT's how strong they are.

25 years dead center of the Democratic establishment > 3 months in the national spotlight and 40+ years of being in the margins

It's because Hilary is a white woman with a huge ass.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Wow, you're deep into victimization this time.

There's no point in making salient points to you. You will ignore them, throw out insults, get one back, and play the eternal victim as you parse and quibble things into a never ending war of attrition.

Um, no. You can look through my posting history. I get into lots of good, substantive discussions. And look at yours. You respond to issue-based arguments with empty personal attacks. I'm really curious about what you get out of that.

I don't think calling out on the matter of prison reform necessarily entails going negative per se - at least of the nasty campaigning that is what he really seems to be trying to avoid. The current Clinton approach of "Here is your old position" should be fine, and is one he has taken in places.

And as a Clinton supporter, I believe that criminal justice/poverty is really where her biggest fuckups lie. A lot of her later issues only became clearly issues after the fact, or generally tracked Dem positions of the time, so they get more leeway. The tough on crime positions have less of a defense from this angle.

If you're talking about the 1994 crime bill (signed by Bill Clinton, but whatever), that did track Dem positions at the time (obviously since it passed--and Sanders voted for it), and it was particularly popular among black Democrats. People have a hard time remembering how different America was at the time after the huge decline in crime since then. The effect of the bill on incarceration levels is also way overstated (you can't see any real effect in the numbers).

Welfare reform was clearly a mistake (contributing to an increase in deep poverty in America) even given what was known at the time, and that does go to my biggest difference with Clinton (in comparison to Sanders), which is that I'm less interested in creating a society where talented people can rise to positions of power regardless of their background than I am in completely eliminating poverty. That's why I've said before that the primary is a head vs. heart thing for me. I think Bernie's a good guy who shares my values to a greater extent than Clinton does, but she's way stronger on policy.

Ed: Here's Kevin Drum (from Mother Jones) on the crime bill:

 

[panamaican]

And both Hillary and Bill resorted to racist dog whistles in 2008 to attract White dems.

Hillary is fake through and through, she only now feigns some sympathy for the Blacks concerend about police violence by associating herself with some of the moms of the Black men killed by cops.

Bill Clinton's 1994 crime bill has been criticised by Blacks for making things worse in their community. as Fran Leibowitz said on Maher's show recently , the Clintons are righwingers who moved the Dem party to the right.

Hillary is a shill for Wallstreet and corporate America, the same folks who have undermined Black working class with their gungho support for outsourcing.

Notice that you didn't answer my question - what has BErnie done since Bill's 1st term in support of the black population?

Telling me all of the stuff evil Hilary has done isn't the same as telling me what Bernie has done.

 

[panamaican]

Lol, bernie was out railing against the Jim crow war on drugs in the media, while being a senator from Vermont with a 4% black population. He supported Jesse Jackson for president, just...............eh...

He was railing against the war on drugs when it only affected black people or after the liberal college kids decided to say something about it. I did serious research into the sentencing guidelines back in law school, barely 10 years ago, Bernie's name never came up as authoring legislation or advocating for change. Sure, I might have missed it since I wasn't cataloguing every person who said something so correct me.

And please stop calling it the Jim Crow war on drugs. First and most importantly, it makes a mockery of actual Jim Crow legislation.

Second, it disregards the fact that until marijuana smokers started getting hit with draconian sentences, most people didn't give a fuck about the inefficiency of the war on drugs. The "war" started back in the 80's and no one said a thing when it was focused on the inner cities.