Top ten American (USA) MWs ever?

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by pankrat, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. Paolo Delutis

    Paolo Delutis Brown Belt

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    Your selection is just off man...

    Easiest top 5

    1. Dan Henderson
    2.chris Weidman
    3. Frank shamrock
    4. Rich Franklin
    5.ken shamrock/Matt linland/Travis Lutter/Rockhold

    Based off resume and overall career success..

    Like how the hell is Tim.kennedy on your list and higher then rich who was champ...Kennedy never cracked top 5??
     
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  2. Rum

    Rum Champion of Champions

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    Where were the best 185ers fighting?

    Pride, which didn't even have a 185lb division, instead going straight from 176 to 209?

    Pancrase, who only had one 185er who was top level UFC caliber?
     
  3. pankrat

    pankrat Orange Belt

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    WSOF is not a regional promotion. Marlon Moraes or Justin Gaethje were champs there as well.
    The guys Franklin beat to become UFC champ back in 2005 werent much better, if any, than the guys Branch beat to defend the WSOF MW/LHW belts in 2015. It includes Vinny Magalhaes and a better version of Okami than the one Franklin beat, in a much more dominant fashion.

    Okami wasnt in his prime back in 2007. He largely evolved from there, man.
    Chuck was 40 years old...he retired after that fight....
    Wanderlei was obviously far from his prime when he fought Franklin.
    You are right that Franklin only lost to the best, usually in dominant fashion...and his fight win Henderson is legit despite the decision. That's why I rank him in the top ten, but I dont think the level of the competition he beat is enough to rank him top 5 by any means
     
  4. pankrat

    pankrat Orange Belt

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    Exactly, the money wasnt at 185. It doesnt mean there werent guys of Franklin's size around. If a guy his same size is fighting bigger guys for better money is still a guy of his size, so qualify in this list. To put a list of UFC champs you dont neeed to create a thread.

    Matt Lindland, Dan Henderson, Vitale, Lawler, Nate Marquardt...these are some examples of American MWs that for whatever reason werent fighting Franklin.
    UFC got rid off Matt Lindland in a winning streak. he was boring and not charismatic enough I guess. Cool, its their business, but it wont prevent me from thinking that Matt Lindland would have been a really tough test for Rich back when he was champion. Probably his toughest test prior to Anderson Silva. Would have had a good chance of beating Franklin imo
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  5. pankrat

    pankrat Orange Belt

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    Your list is based off...legacy? I guess...
    Kennedy in his prime (Strikeforce/UFC) would outwrestle any version of Frank Shamrock to death....
    Ken didnt fought at MW.
    Travis Lutter you serious?

    About Franklin deserving a higher spot just because he was champ....yeah, he was champ but he wasnt fighting the other best American MWs around (let alone from the rest of the world).
    Lindland got cut from the UFC in winning streak so he didnt derail Franklin's hype. And you instead of looking at it critically, you just swallow the pillow and say "he was the champ"....
    In not bashing on Franklin, I really like the guy, I just try to look at it objectively, I think I have seen better MWs than Franklin coming off America. Even at his time, is was arguale he was the best, but there have been many legit American MWs in the last decade who could take Franklin's spot.
     
  6. gono btw

    gono btw Rounds...

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    Generally speaking, when u make such a list, u do not compare Fighter X with Fighter Y,
    like how the former would fare with the latter in the cage/ring.

    What u do compare is:

    1/ The way they dominated the game.

    2/ The quality of their opponents.

    3/ The innovations they brought to the game.

    4/ How many HOFers in the resumé.

    5/ Quality wins AND quality losses (= put wins & losses INTO CONTEXT)

    6/ Ali´s D2BG (Dared 2 Be Great?)... against heavier opponents.

    Obs: this is NOT a head-2-head contest btw 2 fighters from different eras
     
  7. pankrat

    pankrat Orange Belt

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    Well, I think that the list you are suggesting, would just be another thread.
    You can't compare fighters from different eras? Why? You cant compare fighters from the same era if they haven fought each other neither?
    I think you are right that wins and losses must be put into context
    I think Frank Shamrock in his prime would be a very solid fighter still today, but I think you also can judge if he was a better fighter or not than, say, David Branch. Why not? Imagine a fighter that has been a regular training partner of Frank 15 years ago and David Branch lately...if you ask him, he would not be able to answer who is, in his opinion, the better fighter? Why not?
    Just like you can say that Tyron Woodley is a better fighter than prime Matt Hughes and would KO him prime vs prime. If Hugues still has a better legacy, or dominated his era more than Woodley did, thats another story.
     
  8. Rum

    Rum Champion of Champions

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    And yet you have Nate Marquardt all the way up at #5.

    Nate Marquardt whose best wins were ...

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. pankrat

    pankrat Orange Belt

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    I think Marqaurdt #5 is arguable but,
    From 2004 to 2012, he won the Pancrase belt to Kazuo Misaki and defended it, went 4-0 in UFC to get a tittle shot, then submitted Horn, KOed Kampman, Gouveia, Palhares, Woodley, and is still the only man to KO Maia as well. Only lost to the very best in competitive fights....Not bad

    If we were in 2006, I would rank Franklin above him, but Marquardt kept evolving from there and beat very legit fighters.
     
  10. Paolo Delutis

    Paolo Delutis Brown Belt

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    Kennedy would get tapped by Frank.. plain and simple not saying Kennedy couldn't take him down but frank would take his leg or neck whenever he wanted..especially with Kennedy's 5 min gas tank lol..

    Franklin brought stability to the division and beat some stylisticly bad mqrch ups with ease
     
  11. pankrat

    pankrat Orange Belt

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    I can't agree with you there.... Kennedy's 5 min gas tank? The guy who went 5 round fights with Jacare, Rockhold or Bisping, and all three of them recognize in Kennedy one of their toughest opponents?

    Frank would not take Kennedy's leg or neck whenever he wanted...c'mon man
     
  12. Rum

    Rum Champion of Champions

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    So you're counting Marquardt as #5 MW because of what he did against WWs?

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Rum

    Rum Champion of Champions

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    Isaac Newton didn't know jack about quantum physics. Does that mean your average run of the mill BSc student, who understands the physical world in ways Newton never did, is a better physicist than Newton?

    It's meaningless to say, for example, that Prime DC would beat Prime Bas. Context is everything. Bas wasn't able to study Bas to get as good as he did. He had to learn all his lessons through trial and error. Modern fighters get to study the greats of the past in addition to their own trial and error learning. Without mentally leveling the playing field, comparing them head to head is inane.

    The top fighters of the 2010s only reach such technical and tactical heights because they are standing on the shoulders of giants. That doesn't mean they're taller than the giants.
     
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  14. pankrat

    pankrat Orange Belt

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    I think the only guy I listed that Marqaurdt didnt beat at MW is Woodley.
    And yeah, I also take into account wins over legit competition at different weights. Its not like Marquardt didnt develepod large most of his career at MW.
    Anyways, Franklin and Marquardt are not that far form each other in terms of size. So the question would be how do you see prime Franklin vs prime Marquardt fighting each other at MW. I personally think it would be interesting, but see more ways for Marquardt to win the fight
     
  15. Aldo145

    Aldo145 Blue Belt

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    Lol says the guy that has sonnen top 4? What has rockhold done other then beat weidman and choke in big fights. What has weidman done other then beat older Brazilians. They're all great fighters but to disrespect franklin for his accolades at his time in the sport is a joke. Gtfo. Also what does me being American have to do with anything.
     
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  16. pankrat

    pankrat Orange Belt

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    You are right on what you are saying if the thread were about mma legacy. But its not.

    If 10 guys from today run faster than Jesse Owens, they run faster. No one is despising Jesse Owens legacy because of that. I would watch a docu or read a book about Jesse Owens and not about whoever is the 10th fastest man in the world today, but he runs faster than Jesse ever did.

    If DC would handle Bas with ease in a fight is fair to say it. If DC beat prime Fedor is fair to say it as well but IM not that sure about that, I find it is open to discussion. And you can say is meaningless to discuss about that, then...well, its a thread in sherdog heavies, nothing else.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  17. pankrat

    pankrat Orange Belt

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    I dont know what to say about your take on Rockholds and Weidmand fighting careers....honestly.
    I dont disespect Franklin. He has all my respect. He was a better fighter than Weidman or Rockhold in your opinion or not? You are not direspecting Franklin for saying your opinion.
    And yeah, my opinion is that Sonnen in 2010 would have dominated any version of Franklin.

    I would say Franklin is a bit overrated by American fans...you know, he was the UFC posterboy back in the day, developed his whole career in America, is a likeable guy....
    Obviously UFC invest in marketing for a reason, and his audience are mainly Americans, especially back in Franklin's time
    UFC's choice of hyping Franklin and get rid of a very legit threat to him in Mattt Lindland has to do with marketing much more than with Lindland not being a competent fighter.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  18. Aldo145

    Aldo145 Blue Belt

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    Franin wasnt in his prime 2010 so what does that have to do with anything? Also to include kelvin is weird hes had 3 fights at mw. You just seem to be trolling.
     
  19. pankrat

    pankrat Orange Belt

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    I said Sonnen would have dominated any version of Franklin. I said 2010 because back then Sonnen was at his best.
    My point is prime Sonnen vs prime Franklin. Who win? My pick is Sonnen by wrestling clinic. Its my opinion.

    Kelvin being listed is arguable but, he won the TUF at MW including a pro fght with Uriah Hall. He has beat 5 very legit guys at MW in recent years. I found it impressive.
    And he is now in line for a tittle shot at MW. To get a tittle shot in UFC at MW today is not the same as doing it back in 2005, you know, who did Loiseau or Quarry beat to get the tittle shot against Franklin?
     
  20. Rum

    Rum Champion of Champions

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    Even prime Marquardt lost to some ordinary fighters, and as you helpfully pointed out has to rely mostly on wins over WWs or future WWs for you to market him.

    Meanwhile, Rich beat
    • 20-3, undefeated in the UFC Okami who had a win over Anderson Silva
    • LHW Matt Hamill who had only one prior loss and went on to defeat Keith Jardine, Mark Munoz, Tito Ortiz and Jon Jones
    • Pancrase openweight champion (i.e., better than mere MW Marquardt) and UFC Superfight Champion, Ken Shamrock
    • UFC MW Champion Evan Tanner
    • Pride MW Champion Wanderlei "The Axe Murderer" Silva
    • UFC LHW Champion Chuck "The Iceman" Liddell
    • Pride MW Champion Wanderlei "The Axe Murderer" Silva again
    and, unlike Marquardt, only has losses to high level guys (and a suspiciously swole Cung Le)
    • A tiiiiiiight split with your #1 Hendo
    • Anderson, who also obliterated Marquardt
    • Vitor on a 4-win streak who had just wrecked your boy Matt Lindland in 37 seconds
    • Lyoto Fucking Machida
    • A Forrest who outweighed him by about 75lbs
    And yet Marquardt is your #5, and Rich is in a soup of fighters at #10?

    [​IMG]
     

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