Top ten American (USA) MWs ever?

pankrat said:
You are right on what you are saying if the thread were about mma legacy. But its not.

If 10 guys from today run faster than Jesse Owens, they run faster. No one is despising Jesse Owens legacy because of that. I would watch a docu or read a book about Jesse Owens and not about whoever is the 10th fastest man in the world today, but he runs faster than Jesse ever did.

If DC would handle Bas with ease in a fight is fair to say it. If DC beat prime Fedor is fair to say it as well but IM not that sure about that, I find it is open to discussion. And you can say is meaningless to discuss about that, then...well, its a thread in sherdog heavies, nothing else.
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Then the entire thread is inane, even for the Sherdog Heavies.
 
pankrat said:
I can't agree with you there.... Kennedy's 5 min gas tank? The guy who went 5 round fights with Jacare, Rockhold or Bisping, and all three of them recognize in Kennedy one of their toughest opponents?

Frank would not take Kennedy's leg or neck whenever he wanted...c'mon man
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Toughest is referring to his ability to take punishment and keep going..but it doesnt mean he didn't gas out almost every scrap
 
Rum said:
Even prime Marquardt lost to some ordinary fighters, and as you helpfully pointed out has to rely mostly on wins over WWs or future WWs for you to market him.

Meanwhile, Rich beat
  • 20-3, undefeated in the UFC Okami who had a win over Anderson Silva
  • LHW Matt Hamill who had only one prior loss and went on to defeat Keith Jardine, Mark Munoz, Tito Ortiz and Jon Jones
  • Pancrase openweight champion (i.e., better than mere MW Marquardt) and UFC Superfight Champion, Ken Shamrock
  • UFC MW Champion Evan Tanner
  • Pride MW Champion Wanderlei "The Axe Murderer" Silva
  • UFC LHW Champion Chuck "The Iceman" Liddell
  • Pride MW Champion Wanderlei "The Axe Murderer" Silva again
and, unlike Marquardt, only has losses to high level guys (and a suspiciously swole Cung Le)
  • A tiiiiiiight split with your #1 Hendo
  • Anderson, who also obliterated Marquardt
  • Vitor on a 4-win streak who had just wrecked your boy Matt Lindland in 37 seconds
  • Lyoto Fucking Machida
  • A Forrest who outweighed him by about 75lbs
And yet Marquardt is your #5, and Rich is in a soup of fighters at #10?

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I dont know who you say are the ordinary fighters that beat prime Marquardt...
The Okami who fought Marquardt was a bigger, better boxer, wrestler and all around better fighter than the one who fought Franklin in a very even contest. Okami had Franklin in big troubles in the last round actually.
You know Ken Shamrock, Chuck Liddel and Wand were washed up versions of themselves

Anways you and some other have made good enough points in Franklin's favour. He probably deserves more credit.
I still have the doub though: prime Rich Franklin vs prime Nate Marquardt. Who wins in your opinion?
 
Paolo Delutis said:
Toughest is referring to his ability to take punishment and keep going..but it doesnt mean he didn't gas out almost every scrap
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I think Kennedy has a very large gas tank while grappling, which is his thing. Obviously he is not a natural striker, and for the same reason will gas himself out if he is forced to get into striking exchanges.

The way he outwrestled Bisping for 5 rounds is impressive. Bisping has great cardio and is not an easy guy to outwrestle, let alone for 25 minuts
 
pankrat said:
I dont know who you say are the ordinary fighters that beat prime Marquardt...
The Okami who fought Marquardt was a bigger, better boxer, wrestler and all around better fighter than the one who fought Franklin in a very even contest. Okami had Franklin in big troubles in the last round actually.
You know Ken Shamrock, Chuck Liddel and Wand were washed up versions of themselves

Anways you and some other have made good enough points in Franklin's favour. He probably deserves more credit.
I still have the doub though: prime Rich Franklin vs prime Nate Marquardt. Who wins in your opinion?
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Marquardt wrecks Rich.

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Rum said:
Then the entire thread is inane, even for the Sherdog Heavies.
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haha well I actually enjoyed it and learned from the take on the matter that some of the posters did, including yours.
Excuse me for my poor English by the way
 
pankrat said:
haha well I actually enjoyed it and learned from the take on the matter that some of the posters did, including yours.
Excuse me for my poor English by the way
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At first I thought you were cray cray and wrote you off, but after a while with the way you stuck at it, bringing a decent amount of perspective and not getting emo I decided I like your style.

You seem to have a pretty sober way of looking at things, which is more than I can say for the majority of the lunatics around this joint.
 
pankrat said:
Well, I think that the list you are suggesting, would just be another thread.
You can't compare fighters from different eras? Why? You cant compare fighters from the same era if they haven fought each other neither?
I think you are right that wins and losses must be put into context
I think Frank Shamrock in his prime would be a very solid fighter still today, but I think you also can judge if he was a better fighter or not than, say, David Branch. Why not? Imagine a fighter that has been a regular training partner of Frank 15 years ago and David Branch lately...if you ask him, he would not be able to answer who is, in his opinion, the better fighter? Why not?
Just like you can say that Tyron Woodley is a better fighter than prime Matt Hughes and would KO him prime vs prime. If Hugues still has a better legacy, or dominated his era more than Woodley did, thats another story.
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A list of potential ATGs only makes sense if it is related to a set of criterias

You have your set, I have mine, the other dude who was arguin´with ya has a different one too...

It is what it is.
 
I just like to point out that Dan Henderson looked way better at LHW than MW... Aside Bisping KO, he wasn't that impressive at the division, LHW strikeforce Henderson was the man.
He lost to Misaki, arguably beat Bustamante, was subpar agaisnt Franklin and Anderson and so on.
 
GalegodoVeneno said:
I just like to point out that Dan Henderson looked way better at LHW than MW... Aside Bisping KO, he wasn't that impressive at the division, LHW strikeforce Henderson was the man.
He lost to Misaki, arguably beat Bustamante, was subpar agaisnt Franklin and Anderson and so on.
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I agree but the list wasnt as much about accomplishments in the middleweight division, which wasnt even a thing at some point, but rather about the best American fighters around that size. If being that size you go to KFTO of Fedor Emelianenko you are the boss, in my book.

btw, GalegodaGaliza? :D
 
GalegodoVeneno said:
I just like to point out that Dan Henderson looked way better at LHW than MW... Aside Bisping KO, he wasn't that impressive at the division, LHW strikeforce Henderson was the man.
He lost to Misaki, arguably beat Bustamante, was subpar agaisnt Franklin and Anderson and so on.
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In the 1st part of his career, he could realistically be considered more a MW than a LHW (around 193-198 lbs), and he then had some pretty solid wins (vs Goes in UFC, vs a very dominant Big Nog in Rings [controversial decision, but still, he was not supposed to be that competitive vs a HW], vs Babalu in Rings)
 
pankrat said:
1.Dan Henderson
2.Luke Rockhold
3.Chris Weidman
4.Chael Sonnen
5.Nate Marquardt
6.Jake Shields (for actually beating Hendo)
7.Tim Kennedy
8.Rich Franklin
9.Dave Branch
10.Kelvin Gastelum/Frank Shamrock/Matt Lindland/Jason Miller/Robbie Lawler//Derek Brunson?
Who else?
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Rich should definitely be higher on the list
 
pankrat said:
I agree but the list wasnt as much about accomplishments in the middleweight division, which wasnt even a thing at some point, but rather about the best American fighters around that size. If being that size you go to KFTO of Fedor Emelianenko you are the boss, in my book.

btw, GalegodaGaliza? :D
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I know what you mean and i agree, dan Henderson when not cutting weigh usually looked way more dinamic and powerfull, fedor, feijão and shogun being good examples. But he was looking good for acient battered fighter at the middleweight his lasts fights, that lombard fight was really impressive. So it's fair to say he was a legend in 3 weights.
 
1. Chris Weidman
2. Dan Henderson
3. Luke Rockhold
4. Jake Shields (relatively few fights at 185, but is undefeated against good competition at this weight, including a dominant win over Dan Henderson)
5. Rich Franklin
6. Chael Sonnen
7. Nate Marquart
8. Robbie Lawler (ranked lower because his best wins were at 170, although he also has solid wins at 185, like Lindland)
9. Evan Tanner
10. Matt Lindland
 
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Jackie Blue said:
1. Chris Weidman
2. Dan Henderson
3. Luke Rockhold
4. Jake Shields (relatively few fights at 185, but is undefeated against good competition at this weight, including a dominant win over Dan Henderson)
5. Nate Marquart
6. Chael Sonnen
7. Evan Tanner
8. Robbie Lawler (ranked lower because his best wins were at 170, although he also has solid wins at 185, like Lindland)
9. Matt Lindland
10. Kelvin Gastelum
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Rich not even Top 10 but Nate is #5 and Tanner #7?

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