Oregon lowering the bar to be an attorney

[SocraticMethod]

The only guy I know who didn't pass the bar examine, married a wealthy lady who is an engineer. From what his parents say, he plays golf everyday, works out and diets to stay in shape, while she works hard at her job. He has no future plans to try and pass the bar examine I've been told.

This is a list of my shattered dreams.

 

[Frank11]

To be honest, I have an ambivalent attitude towards lawyers. I used to think that they were greedy, cynical people who did nothing but look for loopholes to get around the law. But when my business partner and I divided our business it was only thanks to a lawyer (site) that I was able to get a fair share, I looked at it from a different perspective. Maybe there are good people out there who are fighting for the right thing.

 

[Otto!]

Flashbacks of My cousin Vinny.

 

[HereticBD]

To be honest, I have an ambivalent attitude towards lawyers. I used to think that they were greedy, cynical people who did nothing but look for loopholes to get around the law. But when my business partner and I divided our business it was only thanks to a lawyer that I was able to get a fair share, I looked at it from a different perspective. Maybe there are good people out there who are fighting for the right thing.

They're a bit like insurance companies. They rob people, but they also do come through for people as well. Gotta take the good with the bad.

 

[mozfonky]

They do.

I think they do, not judging from ever doing it myself but just meeting some of the people who are lawyers. One guy was as nutty as could be and I didn't even see how he would not be smart enough to be a lawyer but also stable enough. Hypersensitive, he thought I didn't say "hi" once when we met and he went nuts and that was the end of our relationship. I don't see how a guy like that got as far as he did, had a huge house, who knows? Another guy, who was very intelligent and had a photographic memory, became a lawyer and got caught stealing half a mill from a client, he got disbarred, I heard he's back in practice but jesus, what a stupid thing for such a smart guy to do. I just assumed it was a poverty issue as I know he was one of the few white guys in the all black projects in our area. So, ethically, there are standards, didn't F. Lee Bailey get disbarred at some point? I also don't think it's nowhere near as strenuous and with as many barriers to entry as being something like a doctor which they make very, very hard to weed out as many people as they can, and even still, some fuck ups get through.

 

[mozfonky]

Agree that you learn on the job. There's so many specialties in law, you have to get somewhere and see how its done and learn from more seasoned attorneys. Law school is about "thinking like a lawyer" -- whatever the hell that means, and the bar is simply remembering certain very broad concepts about a number of areas (the number depends on what state you're in). But the part about nobody following the law isn't true. Even if you do eventually get to a jury trial, there will be tons of motions and decisions that happen before the jury is seated on everything from what causes of action can be asserted to evidence being admissible, etc. For example, the fraud case in NY against Trump is a bench trial. BUT, it's only a bench trial because his lawyer screwed up and didn't request a jury trial as required by NY law. If she knew the law better (she's a NJ attorney) they'd have the jury he says he wants. But even if they did have a jury, he's already been found liable on summary judgement, because that was a matter of law to be decided by the court, not a matter of fact to be decided by a jury. All the jury would be doing if they had one is determining damages. The vast majority of legal outcomes are decided based on the law, not on the specific facts of the case. But that law is something that most will learn on the job, not shit you remember from law school or bar review.

I just don't know, I know some rich lawyers and, swear to god, not saying this out of meanness but they just don't seem all that bright. I know a couple who are lawyers and they must have something on the ball but my god, they just do not seem all that smart. The wife busts her ass all the time, I know that, the husband, I think it might be just a case of connections. I'm not saying it out of jealousy or anything because I love them but i scratch my head with some of their ideas and more often with how doofus they are mechanically (which is the type of stuff I'd do for them as a handyman) . Example, one time i was giving the husbands car a jump, well, you know how the jump wires are molded together? Well, this guy starts tearing them completely apart for reasons unknown and I didn't try and stop him, just watched and didn't get it at all but that's them.

 

[I Am Legion]

Oregon gonna Oregon. As long as they keep that shit in that liberal hell hole I am fine with it. The funniest part is with the huge increase in crime and drug abuse, it would seem they would need more qualified legal help, not less.

 

[James Eagle]

I lived in Oregon for 20 years, it’s not full of “smart” people. They are very progressive, they live on emotions not logic. They also dropped reading, writing, and math requirements to graduate high school. The population centers in Oregon are fucked in the future. They are creating generational retardation

 

[nostradumbass]

Well now we know what the first question anyone will be asking before hiring a lawyer there in future. Did you actually pass the bar?

Who's actually going to pick the guy who didn't?

People who have to take the public defender.

 

[SocraticMethod]

I just don't know, I know some rich lawyers and, swear to god, not saying this out of meanness but they just don't seem all that bright. I know a couple who are lawyers and they must have something on the ball but my god, they just do not seem all that smart. The wife busts her ass all the time, I know that, the husband, I think it might be just a case of connections. I'm not saying it out of jealousy or anything because I love them but i scratch my head with some of their ideas and more often with how doofus they are mechanically (which is the type of stuff I'd do for them as a handyman) . Example, one time i was giving the husbands car a jump, well, you know how the jump wires are molded together? Well, this guy starts tearing them completely apart for reasons unknown and I didn't try and stop him, just watched and didn't get it at all but that's them.

I've definitely encountered some dumbasses. Especially when it comes to mechanical/fix-it stuff (I have no natural ability in those area either, but I'm working on it and was able to change my car battery out using a YT video at least). They could (a) just be good at whatever their niche area of the law is; or (b) just found a way to get by until they were senior enough to assign all the real work to associates. There are a lot of lawyers, especially older ones, that wouldn't be able to work the printer or the copier without their secretaries, but they still know the law.

I've definitely run into some opposing counsel that I wondered if they got kicked in the head by a donkey or something, though.

 

[mozfonky]

I've definitely encountered some dumbasses. Especially when it comes to mechanical/fix-it stuff (I have no natural ability in those area either, but I'm working on it and was able to change my car battery out using a YT video at least). They could (a) just be good at whatever their niche area of the law is; or (b) just found a way to get by until they were senior enough to assign all the real work to associates. There are a lot of lawyers, especially older ones, that wouldn't be able to work the printer or the copier without their secretaries, but they still know the law.

I've definitely run into some opposing counsel that I wondered if they got kicked in the head by a donkey or something, though.

that's the thing, I know they aren't that stupid, at least not with everything, or they wouldn't be able to function like they do. I know not everyone is mechanical but I often wonder how much of that is a class thing. I have a hindu friend who is a mechanical dunce, i had to jump his car (I gave him the jumper cables the other idiot tore apart) and I mean to tell him to let his son learn things like that while he's young so he's not so helpless. With them, they have the issues with cleanliness and not working with your hands but it's kinda similar to the lawyers who seem like they just never really learned to do stuff like that. It's trying for me because as i get older, it's harder being kind like I used to and I am getting testier and testier just out of lack of patience.

 

[ralphc1]

This may be a good idea. The Bar exam isn’t everything. If you graduated from law school, it has to count for something. They don’t just let anyone graduate.

That depends on the school. You can purchase many degrees from online schools. Without the bar exam I suspect there would be many new law schools popping up.

 

[Belaya Smert]

They don’t want to prosecute
Makes sense

 

[Jack Reacheround]

That depends on the school. You can purchase many degrees from online schools. Without the bar exam I suspect there would be many new law schools popping up.

I didn’t realize there were so many Trump University style law schools. Is there no accreditation for law schools or something?

 

[DoctorTaco]

"In addition to completing 675 hours of paid legal work, participants in Oregon’s new program must submit at least eight examples of legal writing, take the lead in at least two initial client interviews or client counseling sessions, and head up two negotiations, among other requirements. The applicants' portfolios would then be graded by Oregon bar examiners, and those with qualifying scores would be sworn into the state bar."

Quoting this hoping more people will read it.

 

[KnightTemplar]

I read somewhere that the final exams to qualify as a Certified Public Accountant are harder to pass than the Bar Exam. True or just an Urban Legend?

 

[MichiganMMA1978]

I think Delaware maybe already has a program like this. It's not an "in" dor failing the bar. It's more of a paid trading where you are trained on the job, and prove competence in drafting legal documents etc.

At least according to lawyers I've heard speak on the subject

 

[Andy Capp]

This may be a good idea. The Bar exam isn’t everything. If you graduated from law school, it has to count for something. They don’t just let anyone graduate.

Not to make this a WR thread, rather it's apropos of your comment, have you seen any of the lawyers representing Donald Trump in court? One of them was reprimanded by a judge for filing a lawsuit which "no competent lawyer would ever have brought," and (I think the same one) objected in court to evidence introduced by her own team.

 

[Andy Capp]

I read somewhere that the final exams to qualify as a Certified Public Accountant are harder to pass than the Bar Exam. True or just an Urban Legend?

I think it's plausible. I don't know how long the bar exam takes but for CPA it's an all-day affair.

 

[Andy Capp]

I think Delaware maybe already has a program like this. It's not an "in" dor failing the bar. It's more of a paid trading where you are trained on the job, and prove competence in drafting legal documents etc.

At least according to lawyers I've heard speak on the subject

Experience is the best teacher, but I think they should still have to pass some standardized exam to establish full competency.