Kimuras are back (in top level MMA)

Bubblun said:
No, but i am not Marcelo either and honestly i like my chances to kimura a 260 lbs guy better than butterfly hook sweep him like Marcelo does, just as an example.
Do you think that sweeping huge guys like Marcelo did don't require physical attributes?

Here is Keenan using the kimura to put the bigger, stronger Dean Lister in an inverted triangle.



I remember Keenan saying somewhere "Not everybody play Marcelo's game" and he right, Marcelo is not the be all end all of jiu jitsu.
If you feel the kimura is your game go for it, even against guys 100 lbs heavier than you.
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He didn't finish the kimura on the stronger opponent though, he used it to control him.
 
Bubblun said:
No, but i am not Marcelo either and honestly i like my chances to kimura a 260 lbs guy better than butterfly hook sweep him like Marcelo does, just as an example.
Do you think that sweeping huge guys like Marcelo did don't require physical attributes?

Here is Keenan using the kimura to put the bigger, stronger Dean Lister in an inverted triangle.



I remember Keenan saying somewhere "Not everybody play Marcelo's game" and he right, Marcelo is not the be all end all of jiu jitsu.
If you feel the kimura is your game go for it, even against guys 100 lbs heavier than you.
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Why do you keep bringing Marcelos butterfly hook to the discussion? Yes Marcelo uses it probably because his body type is perfect for it. His body type isn't perfect to kimura josh Barnett, because he's small and with short arms. His body type is good to choke him out though.

You like your chances on kimura a 260 pounds guy? 1. How big are you 2. What's your belt 3. are you talking about kimura an260 pounds white belt? Because if your talking about a competent grappler, good thing you have faith in you, because is a faith thing, unles you have an good size already, not going to happen.
 
rmongler said:
Depends on how you define efficient; it would be very efficient to choke someone by standing on their neck while pulling their arms, but how often would you ever end up in such a situation?

The DWL is highly available and accessible in pretty much every grappling situation there is, which makes it tactically efficient; you can spend more training time on it, improving entries, transitions, and finishes, making it more advantageous in an absolute sense, once all is said and done.

Observe zero weight cut Sakuraba wrangling beast mode Vitor Belfort.

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Saku and vitor were about the same siZe 10 pounds difference is not what website talking about here...
 
Bubblun said:
No, but i am not Marcelo either and honestly i like my chances to kimura a 260 lbs guy better than butterfly hook sweep him like Marcelo does, just as an example.
Do you think that sweeping huge guys like Marcelo did don't require physical attributes?

Here is Keenan using the kimura to put the bigger, stronger Dean Lister in an inverted triangle.



I remember Keenan saying somewhere "Not everybody play Marcelo's game" and he right, Marcelo is not the be all end all of jiu jitsu.
If you feel the kimura is your game go for it, even against guys 100 lbs heavier than you.
Click to expand...

No one's arguing that Marcelo's style is the way, the truth, and the light for everyone. They're simplying saying no arm in chokes are mechanically more efficient than kimuras.
 
Bubblun said:
Well, believe it or not, the kimura and the RNC are the only attacks that i use to tap guys that are 50 plus lbs than me.
There is a guy in my gym so strong that he can americana me from bottom side control if i try to put him in an americana lock, i need to scream to not have my shoulder rip, but i tap him with kimuras every roll.

I don't believe the "Marcelo has selected the best techniques that works for everybody even against bigger opponents" story anymore.
You don't choose a technique, the technique choose you.
Or are you made to do it or you don't.
Guys that have long legs, flexible hips are made to do triangle chokes, Marcelo is not made to do triangles from the guard, for instance, he is made to play butterfly guard and put you in a marcelotine.
You juggle with the tools that Mother Nature gave to you.
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I like this post a lot. This idea really started to hit home for me when Rafa Mendes says that he uses many techniques for the same reason (to use against people of any size) and they end up being very different than what Marcelo uses (kimuras, delariva, reverse delariva, arm in chokes, etc.)

I think that a lot of these top guys find success with something and then think it will work well for everyone. And the beauty of jiu jitsu is that most techniques can be used by most people if they put the time in. But I think it's important to still find your own game.

People use Marcelo as an example of someone that encourages others to play his game, and he does teach his own style mostly, but his academy has become way more open over the past few years in terms of the techniques you see being taught, and he has lots of students now that are very good at techniques he doesn't use in competition, like berimbolos, kimuras, heel hooks, various arm triangles, deep half guard, etc.

No matter how much you try to emulate someone's game (and I emulated Marcelo's for years) you have still got to discover your own game and your own style.
 
MotivatedPenn said:
No one's arguing that Marcelo's style is the way, the truth, and the light for everyone. They're simplying saying no arm in chokes are mechanically more efficient than kimuras.
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I might say they're more efficient for just the finish. But across the board I'm not so sure. I would probably argue that the kimura is the most powerful grip in jiu jitsu. It's definitely top 3. If you can control the kimura you can basically do anything or go anywhere you want to. The high elbow guillotine is one of the most powerful chokes of all time, but it doesn't offer the level of control that the kimura does, or even the arm-in guillotine. The high elbow guillotine often requires you to really find way to latch yourself onto your opponent and/or chase them around if they scramble during the finish. But both the high elbow guillotine and the kimura are fantastic. It's just that ppl have got to look at the pros and cons of each position.

loyalyolayal said:
Jacare was so successful with it that Marcelo himself(Jacare's victim) was salty enough to say that kimuras are strength based.
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Marcelo is my favorite grappler of all time and I will argue to the death that he's also the best of all time. But I've always thought it was funny that the techniques he typically stays away from are techniques that he has lost to. Jacare/kimura. Braulio/arm triangle. Drysdale/darce.
 
BJJ_Rage said:
Not the same, if you have long legs, you can triangle who ever you want, it's a choke not, you are using your legs vs his neck, you are not going arm vs arm, even if it's 2 v 1.

Caio and mendes use it all the time... when was the last time you saw either of them compite at an absolute division? When was the last time you saw either of them kimura an elite hw competitor with a kimura?

If you say, kimuras are a big strong man technique as triangles are a long leg man technique, you may have a point, if you have short legs, triangles are not going to be your thing, not that you can't pull it off, you just can't rely on them or build your game on it.

Marcelo just rather focus on techniques that will work on everyone, and clean chokes work on anyone.
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I have to be honest. And you know my post history here. I have gone on and on with people disputing Marcelo is the greatest of all time. I do however think it's a mistake to just say his game works for everyone. I know people that it doesn't work for. Or at least it doesn't come easy for. And Marcelo will even be the first to admit that to be good at his game, you have to be good at most of it. Because it all works as a large picture. He says that's why a lot of his students don't have success until later on, because his game has a very high learning curve. I mean how many people have a hard time with the north south choke? A lot of people do. Marcelo says his game works for everyone, but the odd thing is that outside of some of his students like Jon Satava and Mansher Khera, or people like Darragh O'Connail, you don't see a ton of people out there that are very successful with his exact style.

That's not a knock on Marcelo. I don't see many people having success playing anyone else's exact game. I still believe at some point it helps to not try to fully copy or emulate one person.

BJJ_Rage said:
By the way, I use the kimura grip as a way to control too, but I'm not hoping to kimura anyone from guard who's got a lot of weight on me...
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Funny thing is that in sport bjj/grappling I can't think of any time I have ever seen the kimura from full guard finishing on anyone besides Jacare against Marcelo. And people are taught that so early on but I don't ever see it finish anyone.
 
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mataleaos said:
I have to be honest. And you know my post history here. I have gone on and on with people disputing Marcelo is the greatest of all time. I do however think it's a mistake to just say his game works for everyone. I know people that it doesn't work for. Or at least it doesn't come easy for. And Marcelo will even be the first to admit that to be good at his game, you have to be good at most of it. Because it all works as a large picture. He says that's why a lot of his students don't have success until later on, because his game has a very high learning curve. I mean how many people have a hard time with the north south choke? A lot of people do. Marcelo says his game works for everyone, but the odd thing is that outside of some of his students like Jon Satava and Mansher Khera, or people like Darragh O'Connail, you don't see a ton of people out there that are very successful with his exact style.

That's not a knock on Marcelo. I don't see many people having success playing anyone else's exact game. I still believe at some point it helps to not try to fully copy or emulate one person.


Funny thing is that in sport bjj/grappling I can't think of any time I have ever seen the kimura from full guard finishing on anyone besides Jacare against Marcelo. And people are taught that so early on but I don't ever see it finish anyone.
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Bro i don't think his entire game works for anyone, at least not as good as it works for him... But i do think hes approach to subs is right in terms of working for everyone. Hi bases who's whole sub game in 2 things rnc and guillotines, which defenetly work for people of all sizes...
 
BJJ_Rage said:
Bro i don't think his entire game works for anyone, at least not as good as it works for him... But i do think hes approach to subs is right in terms of working for everyone. Hi bases who's whole sub game in 2 things rnc and guillotines, which defenetly work for people of all sizes...
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Yeah I agree with that.

Although I still know people that either don't like guillotines or don't care to learn them and I'll never understand it. I think they're some of the strongest and most versatile techniques there are, and some people just have no interest in trying to get good at them.

If you do nogi even a little bit I think it's very stupid to not bother working on your guillotines.
 
Foxflechette57 said:
Saku was hardly 180 vitor was above 210
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Spirit of the law versus letter of the law.

Point is, some jiu-jitsu moves do require more strength to use, Kimuras definitely are one of them. That doesn't mean they aren't useful, but there is no way a kimura is easier to pull off against big dudes on a regular basis than a rear naked choke or even say... an ankle lock. The last being pure speculation.
 
Coconutwater said:
Spirit of the law versus letter of the law.

Point is, some jiu-jitsu moves do require more strength to use, Kimuras definitely are one of them. That doesn't mean they aren't useful, but there is no way a kimura is easier to pull off against big dudes on a regular basis than a rear naked choke or even say... an ankle lock. The last being pure speculation.
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Agree
 
BJJ_Rage said:
Saku and vitor were about the same siZe 10 pounds difference is not what website talking about here...
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22 pounds different if you want to be exact, and that's Kazushi at walking around weight.

Saku is a natural welterweight, and could make lightweight easily; Vitor is at least 1 or 2 weight classes above him.

(as an aside, he had no business fighting all the huge men pride put in front of him; that he actually had success is nothing short of amazing, but his career could have been so much longer and even more storied if either he or Pride itself had took care of him better. Sometimes you can be too game for your own good.)
 
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