How come women don't like BJJ?

[Latecomer]

The crappy thing about having this atmosphere in the online community is that it paints the first impression of the entire range of BJJ schools everywhere. For all I know the school most local to me is a perfectly wonderful, open and welcoming place - but the online experiences so far have led me to prepare for the opposite, which is why I haven't gone to check it out yet.

You've made some excellent points and there is much that the sport can still do to welcome women...

With that said, I would strongly urge you to override your initial impressions and simply start training. My guess is that you will find the club atmosphere much more welcoming than you imagine and the men generally civilized. They most certainly aren't there to ogle women or rate them on their looks (I'm not saying they don't rate them in their heads, but I have never even heard my male teammates talk about our female teammates that way) much less to cop a feel. Don't let the content of online discussion boards prevent you from discovering this great sport any longer! If you've worked on a ship, I can almost guarantee that you won't feel intimidated in a BJJ club (I worked on a factory-trawler during a summer in college).

 

[VoodooPlata]

The crappy thing about having this atmosphere in the online community is that it paints the first impression of the entire range of BJJ schools everywhere. For all I know the school most local to me is a perfectly wonderful, open and welcoming place - but the online experiences so far have led me to prepare for the opposite, which is why I haven't gone to check it out yet.

Yes, this is crappy and f12 (this forum) would do well to realize that. You should know though that many who practice BJJ don't really hang out on these kinds of forums (maybe for this very reason) and many who hang out on forums are internet tough guys who live in their moms' basements.

What's really sad is that this thread started with a question, and then TheySeeMeRolling answered it from a non-BJJ-practicing woman's perspective (which was unlikely to happen) and people are arguing. If we pretend for a second that the reason given is a stupid reason (which it isn't, IMO) it is still the reason why women don't do BJJ and the issue we as a community should adress.

 

[TheySeeMeRollin]

To restate: no, I do not have experience with a gym/school.

The question this topic asked was: 'why aren't there more women in BJJ? What is stopping them?'

and I posit my theory, supported by more own experience: sexism in the online community might be putting many of them off.

That doesn't mean there can't be a ton of great, welcoming schools with awesome students - that just means that I think it's likely that quite a few women never get as far as walking into a school.

 

[TheySeeMeRollin]

Sorry, but this post isn't valid. And the reason is that you haven't actually been there and tried it yet.

This made me laugh out loud.

"Hey TheySeeMeRollin', how come you haven't tried out that BJJ gym yet even though you've said you want to?"

"Well, I do want to, but it's pretty intimidating and the stuff going on in the online BJJ community just makes me worry that the same type of guys and behaviour is what I'll find in the gym."

"That argument for what's stopping you from going is invalid because... you haven't gone into the gym yet."

"Hey Unearth187, why haven't you tried your food yet?"

"It looks like a turd, and it smells like one too, so I'm worried it will taste like shit."

"That argument for not trying it is invalid, because you haven't actually tried it yet."


:icon_chee

If I was claiming that all BJJ schools/gyms are horrible sexist environments, you would be correct. But I'm not claiming that. I am explaining what is stopping me from going. It's a personal reason, it cannot be invalid.

I think if you did try it you would realize that by far the biggest issue here is the immense amount of physical contact required. Having a hard sparring session in grappling is pretty much as close to actually being raped as you can come.

That actually only supports my argument. If you're going to do something that's physically intimidating, you need to be able to feel mentally safe. I have done some basic rolling with a friend, and even though it had a few 'yikes.. um, okay.. would have to get used to that' moments, I enjoyed it because it was my friend, somebody I felt comfortable with. I most definitely wouldn't have felt so comfortable with the physical aspect if I had the impressionthey were going to critique my body with their mates later, or go online that night to write 'I rolled with a chick today and she was X and I totally Y' (or variations thereon).

If you can't handle WORDS you must likely really can not handle the physical aspect of grappling.

Touch is all about context. The same action can be a lot of fun or very threatening, depending on who is doing it and what their intent is. If the WORDS give somebody reason to expect that the intent isn't good, then yeah, they won't want to deal with the physical aspect.
If the words give someone reason to believe that the intent is good, that people mean them well, then the physical aspect isn't nearly as intimidating.

I'll just restate the very simple message I was trying to give with my post:

What you write online matters. It can be the crucial first impression of somebody who is thinking about trying out your sport.

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

To restate: no, I do not have experience with a gym/school.

The question this topic asked was: 'why aren't there more women in BJJ? What is stopping them?'

and I posit my theory, supported by more own experience: sexism in the online community might be putting many of them off.

That doesn't mean there can't be a ton of great, welcoming schools with awesome students - that just means that I think it's likely that quite a few women never get as far as walking into a school.

I've always wondered about this and I have to think that part of it is that many just don't really want to.

When I discuss fights, BJJ, judo or anything else with the gym I attend, almost every guy listens. Very few women do. It's not that I don't invite them into the discussion. They just aren't interested.

So, I think some of it is just some cultural conditioning of simply not being interested.

I have a great wife, but she has absolutely no clue why I train. She likes that I'm getting into better shape and that I'm doing something I enjoy, but it doesn't mean anything to her. BJJ is entirely interchangeable with basketball as far as she's concerned.

The women that do train at our gym are treat with respect by any person that's in the gym and training long term. The problematic people are most often the newbies that don't fully understand training.

I've been training years, so training is just training but I can see how training with a girl in your first few weeks might be an issue for some guys. They don't even really understand training yet. They're still uncomfortable with the contact with other guys....now let's add a girl into the mix?

Of course, they tend to be the younger guys too, that don't know how to behave around women when their not rolling.

We don't put up with those guys for long and they either figure it out or the get crushed to death by the long term guys that will not watch the females be disrespected.

If the coaches and senior students push a culture of respect, it will be there. Then you'll get some strong women role models who will encourage more female attendance. Our female membership is exploding.

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

If you're going to do something that's physically intimidating, you need to be able to feel mentally safe. I have done some basic rolling with a friend, and even though it had a few 'yikes.. um, okay.. would have to get used to that' moments, I enjoyed it because it was my friend, somebody I felt comfortable with. I most definitely wouldn't have felt so comfortable with the physical aspect if I had the impressionthey were going to critique my body with their mates later, or go online that night to write 'I rolled with a chick today and she was X and I totally Y' (or variations thereon).

Unfortunately, the only way to really feel safe is to be put in the position and then be let out again, if that makes any sense.

I can tell you all day long that I'm going to quit when you tap, I'll let you work your escapes and I promise not to hurt you and that really doesn't give you security when you're in the moment.

What gives you security is to be trapped under mount, have a choke applied, tap and have me immediately remove the choke. That breeds trust which is so necessary to good training, because it helps you push yourself farther and farther.

 

[unearth187]

This made me laugh out loud.

"Hey TheySeeMeRollin', how come you haven't tried out that BJJ gym yet even though you've said you want to?"

"Well, I do want to, but it's pretty intimidating and the stuff going on in the online BJJ community just makes me worry that the same type of guys and behaviour is what I'll find in the gym."

"That argument for what's stopping you from going is invalid because... you haven't gone into the gym yet."

"Hey Unearth187, why haven't you tried your food yet?"

"It looks like a turd, and it smells like one too, so I'm worried it will taste like shit."

"That argument for not trying it is invalid, because you haven't actually tried it yet."


:icon_chee

If I was claiming that all BJJ schools/gyms are horrible sexist environments, you would be correct. But I'm not claiming that. I am explaining what is stopping me from going. It's a personal reason, it cannot be invalid.



That actually only supports my argument. If you're going to do something that's physically intimidating, you need to be able to feel mentally safe. I have done some basic rolling with a friend, and even though it had a few 'yikes.. um, okay.. would have to get used to that' moments, I enjoyed it because it was my friend, somebody I felt comfortable with. I most definitely wouldn't have felt so comfortable with the physical aspect if I had the impressionthey were going to critique my body with their mates later, or go online that night to write 'I rolled with a chick today and she was X and I totally Y' (or variations thereon).



Touch is all about context. The same action can be a lot of fun or very threatening, depending on who is doing it and what their intent is. If the WORDS give somebody reason to expect that the intent isn't good, then yeah, they won't want to deal with the physical aspect.
If the words give someone reason to believe that the intent is good, that people mean them well, then the physical aspect isn't nearly as intimidating.

I'll just restate the very simple message I was trying to give with my post:

What you write online matters. It can be the crucial first impression of somebody who is thinking about trying out your sport.

it is invalid because this topic is not about why one woman who is interested in jiu jitsu doesn't try it. this topic is about why WOMEN in general aren't participating in jiu jitsu. I know you think you have it all figured out, you've obviously convinced yourself that all men are sexist pigs. The reality of the situation however is not all women share this issue with you, and the judgement or banter you claim is so big in jiu jitsu is not even really there. What is an issue there however is the EXTREMELY demanding physical aspect of jiu jitsu. Are you comfortable coming home with bruises everywhere? Are you gonna be ok when a person literally tries to smother you with their belly in north south position cutting off your air supply? Getting facelocked so hard you have blood in your mouth and your wondering to yourself if a filling or something got knocked loose? How about when your training partner forgets his cup and you get a faceful of balls when you slip out of a triangle attempt? Will you freak out and think he did it to you intentionally because you are a woman? What about when you get a staph infection that hurts so bad it literally leaves you in tears at night?

Grappling is an absurdly physically demanding sport. Look at guys like Herschel walker coming into MMA and saying "I never sweated like that in football" and numerous other such anecdotes, its only that much worse for a woman competing with men. Anyways, obviously you know everything, but maybe you should try it first, and see if its still the sexual harrassment intimidation aspect, or the fact that the sport is too physical for you when you quit, because statistically, you probably will.

 

[POPPA ROTZEE]

One reason i think is, BJJ is not sexual, and there is nothing homophobic about it when your a guy rolling with another guy. And when I roll with a girl, I never think any thing sexual.... BUT..I bet a problem is a lot of girls will THINK that guys are thinking something sexual, especially with a lot of the positions. I think for some women this can be intimidating.


Edit: I posted this before reading through the rest of the forum..and it looks like a girl was already saying kind of what I was trying to say.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

One reason i think is, BJJ is not sexual, and there is nothing homophobic about it when your a guy rolling with another guy. And when I roll with a girl, I never think any thing sexual.... BUT..I bet a problem is a lot of girls will THINK that guys are thinking something sexual, especially with a lot of the positions. I think for some women this can be intimidating.


Edit: I posted this before reading through the rest of the forum..and it looks like a girl was already saying kind of what I was trying to say.

Yeah i always wonder if my girlfriend would have stuck with it like she has if she hadn't started in an all girls class.

 

[TheySeeMeRollin]

What gives you security is to be trapped under mount, have a choke applied, tap and have me immediately remove the choke. That breeds trust which is so necessary to good training, because it helps you push yourself farther and farther.

Hmm, I'd still consider that part of physical safety - if I didn't have that trust in someone, I wouldn't let them touch me in the first place.

The mentally safe thing is kind of hard to explain - it has to do with having a personal connection, with being a person to the other and feeling that even though you might have just met, your wellbeing matters to them.
So you releasing the choke when I tap in itself wouldn't do that, but if you looked at me and noticed I looked a little out of it and you asked me if I was okay, that would have to do with mental safety.

It seems a tedious connection, but that does actually connect to my general argument: if you are being judged on your body, you are not a person to the other. Who you are and if you're okay won't matter, if you're just a body.

I absolutely believe that there are lots of individual posters here who would ask 'Hey, you okay?' and genuinely mean it - but the general tone of this forum (and a few others) doesn't represent that.

As for your previous post - yeah, well we are talking about women who are interested in martial arts in the first place.

 

[gullis187]

You should see my gym. We have maybe 5-10 girls training regularly, mostly bluebelts and one blackbelt

 

[countlphie]

the sherdog grappling forum is not a valid representation of the majority of the grappling community (nor are most forums a good representation of reality)

the majority of the grappling community does not actively participate on these forums because of your very same concerns. maybe not sexism specifically, but douchbaggery, idiocy and disrespect in general is fairly rampant. but i wouldn't say this problem is unique to sherdog forums.

it's the internet...that's just the way some people act on the internet.

you can trust me on this one - this is not what grappling teams, gyms are like, nor is the training environment/attitude represented by what you read here. if a real grappling class was like the sherdog forums, then we'd spend every class answering questions about how long it takes to get belts.

 

[BXL]

the sherdog grappling forum is not a valid representation of the majority of the grappling community (nor are most forums a good representation of reality)

the majority of the grappling community does not actively participate on these forums because of your very same concerns. maybe not sexism specifically, but douchbaggery, idiocy and disrespect in general is fairly rampant. but i wouldn't say this problem is unique to sherdog forums.

it's the internet...that's just the way some people act on the internet.

you can trust me on this one - this is not what grappling teams, gyms are like, nor is the training environment/attitude represented by what you read here. if a real grappling class was like the sherdog forums, then we'd spend every class answering questions about how long it takes to get belts.

Just try a gym, in my limited experience I have seen nothing but respect and admiration for all the women/girls at my gym. The Internet is one place, but reality is another. Don't be turned off by what you see outside of reality.

YouTube - FEMALE SUPERFIGHT: Penny Thomas vs Tracey Goodell at Grapplers Quest at UFC Fan Expo Boston 2010

 

[Nizarius]

There's a couple a women who train here.

no bulges south of the border?

are these confirmed females?

 

[StuffLikeThat]

Hi. Seems you're sort of talking about me. Mid twenties, been interested in grappling-based MA for a while, haven't made a move yet.

Why not?

I'm not really into fighting. I'm more about the art part than about the martial. I don't do aggression, it's kind of offputting. But hey, training shouldn't be about aggression anyway, amirite?

The prospect of some guy's sweat dripping into my face isn't something that makes me jump for joy.

The physical closeness thing is a bit intimidating, it would take me some getting used to.

The prospect of getting smashed by some dude trying to prove a point or shore up his manliness doesn't really do wonders for my motivation to run out and join a school either.

I'm not small so I wouldn't have the problem of finding suitably sized training partners, but I am unfit and still kind of crawling out of the hole a severe back injury dumped me in a couple of years ago. So the prospect of being the least fit of a group, and a bit more fragile than most, isn't that nice.

None of that would stop me though. What does stop me?

You don't have to spend more than 5 minutes on BJJ and grappling forums to run into huge amounts of sexism.

As a community, YOU JUDGE WOMEN's BODIES. All the time.

Any time a female grappler comes up on this forum: She's hot - she's ugly - you'd roll with her, but not with her - she's a fatty, etc etc etc. Any discussion about her abilities is a distant secondary to the all important matter of if you would fuck her if you had the chance.

Even the guys in this topic who are writing about the women at their school, wondering why there aren't more, write in the same sentence 'she's hot'.

How do you think most women feel about the prospect of walking into a gym, if they can expect based on what they've found online, that every guy is going to rate her on fuckability? Sounds appealing? Yeah, it's not. Because if the answer is positive and she's deemed hot, she might end up being looked at and touched in ways that are unwanted and inappropriate in a body-neutral zone like a dojo. And if the answer is negative, she will have exactly the same but in the opposite direction.

Every time someone on these forums posts the pic of the bikini girls doing the RNC, or the fatty pics, what your posts are saying to any women who read (and I bet there are more than you'd think, among the lurkers) "Hey, who you are and how good your BJJ is - or could be - doesn't matter. What do you look like?"

If you think this only scares off less attractive women you'd be wrong. Nobody feels confident all the time, and knowing that you are welcome solely based on your looks isn't a great feeling either.

So yeah, certainly it helps if there are female changing rooms and toilets - it's nice to feel that we're expected to be there, that there's space for us, that we're welcome. And it helps if there's already women training there, especially if there are some coloured belts among them. That signals that it's a good place to be for women, that the community is welcoming. And a women's class could be really helpful to lower the threshold while we get more comfortable with the whole physical-closeness-to-strangers thing.

But what's going to really make a major difference is if you, as the BJJ community both online and in the gym, stop judging women's bodies. So that women like me can walk into a gym and expect to be judged on our skills, drive, focus, sense of humour, friendliness, and dedication.

You ARE aware that there's a lot more pressure on men when grappling with a girl, right? Women are more judgmental than men, I mean look at how judgmental you were in that post. How picky you are about how you want to be thought of, touched, and treated. Why do you think women end most romantic relationships, file 70% of divorces, and reject more guys than vice versa? YOU are the judgmental sex who feels uncomfortable and threatened too easily. Do you have any idea how hard it is for a us to always be concerned that we don't look like a creep, or don't go too hard or too easy?

A big reason why I try so hard to try and submit a girl and destroy her when grappling with her, is because of the disdain I have for how much pressure I'm under and how judgmental they are. It's really discouraging to be attracted to a girl (and not have a chance with her) and not being able to say anything and avoid situations where you might get a boner because you don't wanna be seen as creepy, and honestly, it shouldn't be like that, male sexuality should be accepted, because we can't help who we are attracted to, just like you probably can't help but not be attracted to "creepy" or "insecure" or "feminine" guys. YOU are the one who makes the decision not to grapple and not to kick ass, stop blaming it on men, we're human beings who don't wanna be judged too, and wanna be liked for who we are.

 

[Steelviper]

Exactly.... posture up and put your hands on their chest? Oooops....

Oops I just got armbarred.

Hands on chest = bad (male or female). The only exception I can think of is from mount (where the armbar threat is admittedly pretty low) when you're swiveling for the armbar yourself. Roy Dean shows a co-ed friendlier posting method using armpits.

I'd agree that Sherdog isn't a great representation of the real grappling community. If you had a Venn diagram of the online grappling community and the real grappling community, there'd be less overlap than there ought to be. I think actual grappling tends to weed out riff-raf a lot more effectively than can be accomplished in forums.

 

[Steelviper]

Do you have any idea how hard it is for a us to always be concerned that we don't look like a creep, or don't go too hard or too easy?

A big reason why I try so hard to try and submit a girl and destroy her when grappling with her, is because of the disdain I have for how much pressure I'm under and how judgmental they are.

I don't buy it. As a guy, I know what you mean, but am I supposed to feel sorry for you? I don't feel sorry for Bigfoot (the monster truck) if it has to be a little more careful driving around the normal cars. I don't necessarily feel sorry for the cars either, if they signed up to roll around in the same arena as Bigfoot.

However, women ought/need to be choosy about choosing who they roll with, and it's in part because of people like you.

 

[unearth187]

Oops I just got armbarred.

Hands on chest = bad (male or female). The only exception I can think of is from mount (where the armbar threat is admittedly pretty low) when you're swiveling for the armbar yourself. Roy Dean shows a co-ed friendlier posting method using armpits.

Ya you are right that usually hands dont go on the chest. But alot of the times when people break my posture I know my go to is to put my forehead or chin firmly in their chest while pinning their biceps so they cant move and then try to regain posture etc. With a girl it would be like, sorry I didn't mean to nuzzle my face on your boobs? (but i would be meaning to anyways cause boobs are awesome)

 

[unearth187]

You ARE aware that there's a lot more pressure on men when grappling with a girl, right? Women are more judgmental than men, I mean look at how judgmental you were in that post. How picky you are about how you want to be thought of, touched, and treated. Why do you think women end most romntic relationships, file 70% of divorces, and reject more guys than vice versa? YOU are the judgmental sex who feels uncomfortable and threatened too easily. Do you have any idea how hard it is for a us to always be concerned that we don't look like a creep, or don't go too hard or too easy?

A big reason why I try so hard to try and submit a girl and destroy her when grappling with her, is because of the disdain I have for how much pressure I'm under and how judgmental they are. It's really discouraging to be attracted to a girl (and not have a chance with her) and not being able to say anything and avoid situations where you might get a boner because you don't wanna be seen as creepy, and honestly, it shouldn't be like that, male sexuality should be accepted, because we can't help who we are attracted to, just like you probably can't help but not be attracted to "creepy" or "insecure" or "feminine" guys. YOU are the one who makes the decision not to grapple and not to kick ass, stop blaming it on men, we're human beings who don't wanna be judged too, and wanna be liked for who we are.

I'm with this guy. Fuck these snooty bitches who wanna grapple but don't want to get touched. GTFO.

 

[Jumpy]

we have 5 - 6 women that train regularly


one is a cop with a blue belt: we rolled once and tho she didn't tap me she was pretty good at keeping me flat on my back.