How come women don't like BJJ?

[L4u9hin9 M4n**]

Better for you. Don't have to worry about "The Coodies".

 

[ElKarlo]

Helps to have a female instructor, and others to roll with. Also i think the atmosphere of the gym plays a pretty big roll... the more thugs you have the less women you will get. My school has two female instructors in addition to several male instructors and I would say about 1/10 at my school are female.

That's an insane ratio. In America, I've seen up to maybe 2%.

In Japan, it's the one girl per gym deal.

Look at how most girls act. Do any of them ever play fight or wrestle with their friends? Very very few do. Those very few are prolly the few that do actually do BJJ.

Most girls I've seen was in Karate and Kung-fu, maybe 30%. But they were in it for fitness and all that BS.

 

[Hillary]

I disagree with the "women are always more technical" thing, of course. I think it generally holds true through white/early blue belt, because, well, that's our only option. Once guys get caught up and passionate, it may be different, it may not.

Case in point. I'm the middle weight world champ. Marcelo Garcia is the middleweight world champ. HA!

 

[Lasse]

I disagree with the "women are always more technical" thing, of course. I think it generally holds true through white/early blue belt, because, well, that's our only option. Once guys get caught up and passionate, it may be different, it may not.

Case in point. I'm the middle weight world champ. Marcelo Garcia is the middleweight world champ. HA!

I don't think they are more technical, BUT I do believe they are a lot more technical when it comes to defence as they are forced into that area until they learn to get out. One shouldn't forget that there are size small men to.

The smaller you are the more you will be forced to work on your defensive skills and the stronger you are the more time you will spend on top hence learning that mainly.

I believe men end up more technical because of the reason that they can earlier choose to work their top-game if their bottom-game is getting really good, whereas women who are usually even smaller than small men will have a problem far into purplebelt~ on working their top-game.

 

[ElKarlo]

Better for you. Don't have to worry about "The Coodies".

I know man. Wish the center for Imaginary Diseases would hurry up and make a cure!

 

[Irishspirit]

I don't think they are more technical, BUT I do believe they are a lot more technical when it comes to defence as they are forced into that area until they learn to get out. One shouldn't forget that there are size small men to.

The smaller you are the more you will be forced to work on your defensive skills and the stronger you are the more time you will spend on top hence learning that mainly.

I believe men end up more technical because of the reason that they can earlier choose to work their top-game if their bottom-game is getting really good, whereas women who are usually even smaller than small men will have a problem far into purplebelt~ on working their top-game.

I disagree that women are more technical than men. It's 100% impossible to draw this generalization. Most women higher level women accept that our version of the sport is still a little behind the men's version. This is because women haven't been as involved and training on the larger scale as long as men. On top of this, there are less of us therefore the talent pool is smaller and allowing less technical or athletically gifted women to be successful - overtime this will change. Yes, there are some amazingly technical/athletic women (Michelle Nicolini, Beatriz Mesquita, etc) but overall women cannot be said to be "more technical". In fact, it's often the opposite. It's not a knock on women, it just is because of the way the sport developed. Sometimes, we can appear to be "more technical" when rolling with men who are going easy on us as it opens up their game to us.

This is why women need female training partners. Because then we can roll 100% with each other and help each other to improve our techniques and timing in a way that rolling with a man cannot. I'm not saying that women should ONLY roll with women (far from it in fact), it's just that if you want to improve faster, it is important to have female training partners as close to your level as possible. The higher level the female, the more they understand and appreciate this importance.

As an instructor of an all female class at an academy with almost 20 female BJJ students, my goal is to hold our women to a higher standard for belt promotions, even if they are winning their matches. Because unfortunately in women's divisions (and some men's), winning does not equate to total proficiency. But then, I think the overall standard for belt promotions has been falling. Just look at all the individuals receiving purple belts in 3-4 years. That just shouldn't happen unless you are crushing competitors at the international level. Winning a few local tournaments and couple NAGA's or GQ's at one level doesn't mean you deserve to be promoted to the next one imo. Until the American instructors begin holding their students to the same high standard as most Brazilians, we will remain behind them in technical execution and competitive success.

I like to use Bia (Mesquita) as an example, she's been training for 14 years (since she was 5) and is still a brown belt despite amazing success in her division at the international level against both brown and black belts. I'm sure her instructor is still waiting on a piece of her game to come into place before promoting he. And rather than accusing him of sandbagging, I think it is admirable that he wants to wait until she has reached the proficiency he is looking for.

 

[TheySeeMeRollin]

Hi. Seems you're sort of talking about me. Mid twenties, been interested in grappling-based MA for a while, haven't made a move yet.

Why not?

I'm not really into fighting. I'm more about the art part than about the martial. I don't do aggression, it's kind of offputting. But hey, training shouldn't be about aggression anyway, amirite?

The prospect of some guy's sweat dripping into my face isn't something that makes me jump for joy.

The physical closeness thing is a bit intimidating, it would take me some getting used to.

The prospect of getting smashed by some dude trying to prove a point or shore up his manliness doesn't really do wonders for my motivation to run out and join a school either.

I'm not small so I wouldn't have the problem of finding suitably sized training partners, but I am unfit and still kind of crawling out of the hole a severe back injury dumped me in a couple of years ago. So the prospect of being the least fit of a group, and a bit more fragile than most, isn't that nice.

None of that would stop me though. What does stop me?

You don't have to spend more than 5 minutes on BJJ and grappling forums to run into huge amounts of sexism.

As a community, YOU JUDGE WOMEN's BODIES. All the time.

Any time a female grappler comes up on this forum: She's hot - she's ugly - you'd roll with her, but not with her - she's a fatty, etc etc etc. Any discussion about her abilities is a distant secondary to the all important matter of if you would fuck her if you had the chance.

Even the guys in this topic who are writing about the women at their school, wondering why there aren't more, write in the same sentence 'she's hot'.

How do you think most women feel about the prospect of walking into a gym, if they can expect based on what they've found online, that every guy is going to rate her on fuckability? Sounds appealing? Yeah, it's not. Because if the answer is positive and she's deemed hot, she might end up being looked at and touched in ways that are unwanted and inappropriate in a body-neutral zone like a dojo. And if the answer is negative, she will have exactly the same but in the opposite direction.

Every time someone on these forums posts the pic of the bikini girls doing the RNC, or the fatty pics, what your posts are saying to any women who read (and I bet there are more than you'd think, among the lurkers) "Hey, who you are and how good your BJJ is - or could be - doesn't matter. What do you look like?"

If you think this only scares off less attractive women you'd be wrong. Nobody feels confident all the time, and knowing that you are welcome solely based on your looks isn't a great feeling either.

So yeah, certainly it helps if there are female changing rooms and toilets - it's nice to feel that we're expected to be there, that there's space for us, that we're welcome. And it helps if there's already women training there, especially if there are some coloured belts among them. That signals that it's a good place to be for women, that the community is welcoming. And a women's class could be really helpful to lower the threshold while we get more comfortable with the whole physical-closeness-to-strangers thing.

But what's going to really make a major difference is if you, as the BJJ community both online and in the gym, stop judging women's bodies. So that women like me can walk into a gym and expect to be judged on our skills, drive, focus, sense of humour, friendliness, and dedication.

 

[Belatucadros]

As a community, YOU JUDGE WOMEN's BODIES. All the time.

How do you think most women feel about the prospect of walking into a gym, if they can expect based on what they've found online, that every guy is going to rate her on fuckability? Sounds appealing? Yeah, it's not.

If this were the case women shouldn't go to the grocery store, yoga class, or even work....sorry, that's just something men do. Even if they say they don't. They do.

You don't have to be grappling for someone to want to fuck you; if that were the case nobody'd be having babies (based on statistics in this thread anyway)

Not to dismiss the rest of your post; but the part I quoted just gave me a chuckle.

 

[Piernas]

You don't have to spend more than 5 minutes on BJJ and grappling forums to run into huge amounts of sexism.

As a community, YOU JUDGE WOMEN's BODIES. All the time.

Any time a female grappler comes up on this forum: She's hot - she's ugly - you'd roll with her, but not with her - she's a fatty, etc etc etc. Any discussion about her abilities is a distant secondary to the all important matter of if you would fuck her if you had the chance.

Even the guys in this topic who are writing about the women at their school, wondering why there aren't more, write in the same sentence 'she's hot'.

While this is a bit unfortunate when looking at it from your perspective it is not limited to this community by any means. Just spend a day with ANY guy or group of guys and you will see that we judge women all day every day based on their appearance.

A sample conversation could go like this:

"Man did you read the news this morning? Apparently this chick has found a cure for AIDS."

"Oh yah? Is she hot?"


Example 2:

"Oprah is one of the richest people in the world."

"Yah, I'd do her"

"Dude, she's old"

"Yah but she's rich, I'd do her for the money"



I guess what I'm saying is that if you're going to shy away from doing things because you are concerned about how men are going to be judging you, then you should be prepared to spend the rest of your life at home by yourself because you can't go anywhere without some guy looking at you and making a judgement.

Matter of fact, I bet a bunch of guys on this forum, just based on your post are wondering if you're a hot chick that's worried about being groped, or an ugly girl worried about being shunned.

 

[BXL]

I have been at a Gracie Barra studio for a couple weeks and feel like there is consistently a girl or 2 in each class. I rolled with one, and it was awesome how skilled she was and how cool she carried everything off.

The coaches treat everyone equally, I never feel like it is an un-equal environment.

One of the reasons I have been psyched about my gym is the lack of machismo and the respect the place seems to harvest towards everyone.

 

[VoodooPlata]

As a community, YOU JUDGE WOMEN's BODIES. All the time.

Any time a female grappler comes up on this forum: She's hot - she's ugly - you'd roll with her, but not with her - she's a fatty, etc etc etc. Any discussion about her abilities is a distant secondary to the all important matter of if you would fuck her if you had the chance.

You're right, of course. I can't apologize enough for all the meatheads. The part where they go "it's just something that guys do" just means that they're those kinds of guys themselves, and thus hang out with that kind of guys. This colors their world view.

If it makes you feel better, not everyone does this, and the guys who do usually only do it to a point - once you've established that you're there to strangle them they will start thinking about BJJ each and every time they see you. Most guys don't rate women they actually know, I believe.

 

[TheySeeMeRollin]

If this were the case women shouldn't go to the grocery store, yoga class, or even work....sorry, that's just something men do. Even if they say they don't. They do.

Yeah, but in the grocery store I am not expected to get on the ground and roll with those guys, I can just turn up my mp3 player and ignore it. I have never been in an exclusively male (or even just male dominated) yoga class, and at work there are policies against sexism. If those don't do much (crappy management I'd say) and it is a male dominated environment that is hostile to women (because yes, the sexism, constant comments, you-are-not-a-person-but-a-body? All that creates a hostile environment) the only women you will find there are generally the ones who have no choice because their financial situation forces them to be there.

tl;dr - your argument is invalid.

 

[TheySeeMeRollin]

While this is a bit unfortunate when looking at it from your perspective

Actually, it's unfortunate for everybody. It's unfortunate for women like me, who put off walking into a school because it's intimidating. But it's also unfortunate for school owners who miss out on a whole group of potential students, and it's unfortunate for existing students who miss out on potential training partners, and it's unfortunate for a small sport that is creating an image for itself that it's male dominated and that women have to have rhino skins and expend three times the energy to be accepted.

I'm no stranger to male dominated environments - I used to work on a ship, and we'd have a crew of 16-20 people aboard at any time. People would rotate on or off at ports, so at times it would be almost all guys; at times it would be an equal mix or anywhere in between. And the atmosphere would be noticeably different between those two. With an overwhelmingly male crew, the humour would be a little harsher, tempers a little shorter, there'd be less talking about problems and more shouting. And yeah, the trash talk you give examples of.
Then when the crew was mixed, things just felt different. More welcoming for everybody, not just the women. Interesting thing was that most of the guys seemed to prefer that version of our ship-board crew, and at one point the captain asked the shipping office to adapt the rota so that we'd always have a mix aboard because it seemed to make everybody aboard happier. (the tipping point seemed to be 'at least 3 women' but it did vary)

So did the presence of women bring an aura of peace, love, hair braiding and nailpolish or something? Nope. But maybe it inspired the guys to take the sharp edges off and treat women as crewmates, not bodies. And it got the ship a reputation as one of the happiest ships in the industry. Everybody won.

it is not limited to this community by any means. Just spend a day with ANY guy or group of guys and you will see that we judge women all day every day based on their appearance.

Yeah, I am aware. But if you want more women in BJJ - and this community just spent 17 pages over almost two years discussing that you do - that will have to change. There's nothing stopping you from thinking 'If my sister was interested in BJJ, would I recommend she come here?' and then acting on your answer.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you're going to shy away from doing things because you are concerned about how men are going to be judging you, then you should be prepared to spend the rest of your life at home by yourself because you can't go anywhere without some guy looking at you and making a judgement.

I guess what I'm saying is that you - and clearly most guys here - have no concept of what it is like to step into an environment that is dominated by people who are larger, stronger, more experienced and who consider you as a decorative body for them to approve or disprove of, and then you have to get onto the ground and get into close physical contact with them.

(Maybe try to picture yourself being walking into a gay leatherbar for a grappling tournament?)

Sounds like the sort of place you want to walk into unless you have to? Sounds like the sort of place where you want to pay money to spend time doing your hobby? It's not the same as a dude looking you up and down in the street.

Matter of fact, I bet a bunch of guys on this forum, just based on your post are wondering if you're a hot chick that's worried about being groped, or an ugly girl worried about being shunned.

Yeah, I'm actually surprised nobody has posted "You must be a fatty!" yet.

Thing is, it doesn't matter. The mat - and by extension the fora - should be a body-neutral place, where gender and attractiveness is irrelevant and skill and attitude count. By getting into that headspace, a lot of rather homophobic men on this forum seem to get past the whole thing where they have to have close physical contact with other men. Now if everybody could extend that attitude toward women as well, we'd all be good.

 

[Piernas]

@TheySeeMeRollin

You make some very valid points. Things often "should" be different than they are, but life is what it is; not fair. So, my question to you is, have you experienced these things you speak of first hand or are you just assuming it's going to happen to you? I have to say that I have never seen guys be anything but nice to the girls in any academy I've ever trained at. Don't get me wrong, there are sometimes the occasional "she's hot" comments when they are not around but girls talk about the "cute" guy at the gym too.

Females at the academy can be a little nerve racking for guys too. Many of them worry about smashing too hard or "should I grab her lapels at the chest?" instead of just rolling naturally. But I think once you show that you are committed to learning the art, show up ready to roll, and don't act like a princess you or any other female just becomes part of the crew.

So I guess what I am saying is, yah it's intimidating but just go for it if it's something you really wanna do.

 

[a dead stick]

TheySeeMeRollin, have you actually had a bad experience at a jiu jitsu gym or is this just an expression of your general dissatisfaction with any "male dominated" environment?

Because in my experience any/every martial arts gym welcomes women and doesn't encourage the sort of attitude you decry. In all honesty, I see your argument as more of a reflection of your own attitude/prejudice than anything else.

If you think the 1 or 2 guys in your yoga class aren't "judging women's bodies" to the same degree (or lack there of) as anywhere else you are fooling yourself. Actually a yoga class, when compared to a gi jiu jitsu class is a much better place for that sort of thing anyways. :redface:

and it's unfortunate for a small sport that is creating an image for itself that it's male dominated and that women have to have rhino skins and expend three times the energy to be accepted

Where, anywhere, is it actually like this? Seriously? If you are walking into meat-head filled "mma gyms" that don't have decent jiu jitsu instruction/lineage then maybe I could see that, but in my experience it sounds like you are just speaking from fear/prejudice because everywhere I've ever trained treats women equally if not with extra care.

 

[risingD]

@TheySeeMeRollin

great points you came up with.

but

...a lot of rather homophobic men on this forum seem to get past the whole thing where they have to have close physical contact with other men. Now if everybody could extend that attitude toward women as well, we'd all be good.

You won't be able to change this there is no switch in a human brain you can switch off so that you don't have this attitude toward women to not have close physical contact and don't feel a little bit strange it's just the instinct you will never be able to prevent this feelings toward women. We are some kind of animal after all.

just look for the topic "I had a boner while rolling with a female"

 

[tenniswhiz]

There are a couple of women who train at my gym, and oddly I'm the one who's uncomfortable. I must have personal space issues

Exactly.... posture up and put your hands on their chest? Oooops....

Knee on their tailbone?

Yea, I'm with you. I'd rather not roll with women.

 

[LemonHerbWRX]

We have a womans class, it's pretty successful and has a lot of students. It seems like they like BJJ just fine.

 

[TheySeeMeRollin]

You're right, of course. I can't apologize enough for all the meatheads. The part where they go "it's just something that guys do" just means that they're those kinds of guys themselves, and thus hang out with that kind of guys. This colors their world view.

I know not everybody is like this - I know lots of wonderful guys. It's just that when it's the first impression you get of the world of BJJ, well, it's offputting. To put it mildly.
And I don't get the whole 'it's just something guys do' because well, just.. stop. Are they saying they aren't capable of change? Talk about having low expectations of themselves.. and encouraging others to hold them to low standards. The moment I start accepting of somebody 'Yeah, that's just what he's like' is the moment I've lost all respect.

If it makes you feel better, not everyone does this, and the guys who do usually only do it to a point - once you've established that you're there to strangle them they will start thinking about BJJ each and every time they see you. Most guys don't rate women they actually know, I believe.

The crappy thing about having this atmosphere in the online community is that it paints the first impression of the entire range of BJJ schools everywhere. For all I know the school most local to me is a perfectly wonderful, open and welcoming place - but the online experiences so far have led me to prepare for the opposite, which is why I haven't gone to check it out yet.

 

[unearth187]

Hi. Seems you're sort of talking about me. Mid twenties, been interested in grappling-based MA for a while, haven't made a move yet.

Why not?

I'm not really into fighting. I'm more about the art part than about the martial. I don't do aggression, it's kind of offputting. But hey, training shouldn't be about aggression anyway, amirite?

The prospect of some guy's sweat dripping into my face isn't something that makes me jump for joy.

The physical closeness thing is a bit intimidating, it would take me some getting used to.

The prospect of getting smashed by some dude trying to prove a point or shore up his manliness doesn't really do wonders for my motivation to run out and join a school either.

I'm not small so I wouldn't have the problem of finding suitably sized training partners, but I am unfit and still kind of crawling out of the hole a severe back injury dumped me in a couple of years ago. So the prospect of being the least fit of a group, and a bit more fragile than most, isn't that nice.

None of that would stop me though. What does stop me?

You don't have to spend more than 5 minutes on BJJ and grappling forums to run into huge amounts of sexism.

As a community, YOU JUDGE WOMEN's BODIES. All the time.

Any time a female grappler comes up on this forum: She's hot - she's ugly - you'd roll with her, but not with her - she's a fatty, etc etc etc. Any discussion about her abilities is a distant secondary to the all important matter of if you would fuck her if you had the chance.

Even the guys in this topic who are writing about the women at their school, wondering why there aren't more, write in the same sentence 'she's hot'.

How do you think most women feel about the prospect of walking into a gym, if they can expect based on what they've found online, that every guy is going to rate her on fuckability? Sounds appealing? Yeah, it's not. Because if the answer is positive and she's deemed hot, she might end up being looked at and touched in ways that are unwanted and inappropriate in a body-neutral zone like a dojo. And if the answer is negative, she will have exactly the same but in the opposite direction.

Every time someone on these forums posts the pic of the bikini girls doing the RNC, or the fatty pics, what your posts are saying to any women who read (and I bet there are more than you'd think, among the lurkers) "Hey, who you are and how good your BJJ is - or could be - doesn't matter. What do you look like?"

If you think this only scares off less attractive women you'd be wrong. Nobody feels confident all the time, and knowing that you are welcome solely based on your looks isn't a great feeling either.

So yeah, certainly it helps if there are female changing rooms and toilets - it's nice to feel that we're expected to be there, that there's space for us, that we're welcome. And it helps if there's already women training there, especially if there are some coloured belts among them. That signals that it's a good place to be for women, that the community is welcoming. And a women's class could be really helpful to lower the threshold while we get more comfortable with the whole physical-closeness-to-strangers thing.

But what's going to really make a major difference is if you, as the BJJ community both online and in the gym, stop judging women's bodies. So that women like me can walk into a gym and expect to be judged on our skills, drive, focus, sense of humour, friendliness, and dedication.

Sorry, but this post isn't valid. And the reason is that you haven't actually been there and tried it yet. I think if you did try it you would realize that by far the biggest issue here is the immense amount of physical contact required. Having a hard sparring session in grappling is pretty much as close to actually being raped as you can come. The reality of the issue IMO, is that for the most part women training with men in this sport is not nearly as easy as you make it out to be. Like for example you state that if a woman is hot she will be touched in unwanted and inappropriate ways. Trust me, in grappling no matter what you look like you will be touched in unwanted ways and its not considered inappropriate. The girls who have the athleticism and true passion for the sport to stick with it even after basically being victimized for months or years on end on the mat are few and far between. But you should understand, by and large its exactly the same for guys, except the adaption period is a little shorter. Almost everyone starts out getting smashed by more experienced people (if you train at a good gym its almost neverending), thats basically how you increase your level. If you can't handle WORDS you must likely really can not handle the physical aspect of grappling.

The reason there aren't many women in grappling is because its extremely difficult for them to train with men, and by and large there aren't enough women in any one area or school to start up reasonably sized women's classes.