International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. VII

[PhitePhan]

I
I dont think many people view the military way a great option, but Imo the October 7th attack might have shown it's the only way to achieve an acceptable.level of security.

Bibi approves of this message.

 

[Rholk]

Our media almost unilaterally condemns Hamas and the attack. But a lot are condoning Israel's actions. Big difference.

there's a big difference between the Hamas attacks and Israel's actions, wouldn't you agree?

 

[PhitePhan]

History didn't start october 7th no,
But boy did it cement the illusion of there ever beeing a "Palestinian" state.

You’ve got high ranking Israelis on record loooong before 10/7 saying there will never be a two state solution. The insistence they 10/7 has anything to do with Israel’s actions is nonsense.

 

[Rholk]

Bibi approves of this message.

I think everyone does

 

[Rholk]

You’ve got high ranking Israelis on record loooong before 10/7 saying there will never be a two state solution. The insistence they 10/7 has anything to do with Israel’s actions is nonsense.

you've got 57% of Palestinians voting for Hamas (bit of a dated poll tbh), and dare i say it, they are somewhat opposed to a two-state solution themselves

Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support and close to 90% wanting US-backed Abbas to resign

The findings signal more difficulties for the Biden administration’s postwar vision for Gaza and raise questions about Israel’s goal of ending Hamas’ capabilities.

apnews.com

 

[PhitePhan]

I think everyone does

If by “agree” you mean we all knew what Israel’s plans were from the start, you’re right.

 

[Blayt7hh]

Our media almost unilaterally condemns Hamas and the attack. But a lot are condoning Israel's actions. Big difference.

Condemning them and not wanting Israel to do anything about it is nothing more than lip service

 

[Rholk]

If by “agree” you mean we all knew what Israel’s plans were from the start, you’re right.

Kind of depends, Israels plans on October 7th or October 8th ?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Not sure, perhaps egypt gets forced to annex their own territory back.
Or some kind of permanent international peace keeping mission gets sent there, but honestly i couldn't think of a nation that would want to burn it's fingers on this conflict.

But i don't think that "hey there's no perfect option, so lets award a massive terrorist attack with giving the perpetrators their own nation" as a viable option.

Hamas is not the Palestinian people and I'm sure the US has no intention of working towards a Palestinian state that would have Hamas at the helm. That doesn't mean the Palestinian people should be deprived of self determination. After all the Zionists also committed terrorist attacks in the lead up to the founding of their nation, most notably the Deir Yassin massacre, and yet that did not invalidate the Zionist project in the eyes of the West.

Anything less than a serious commitment to Palestinian self determination, whether its one state or two states, is asking for this conflict to boil over again and again and again.

 

[HereticBD]

So then what is the alternative?

I think you know the answer to that question.

 

[Hog-train]

there's a big difference between the Hamas attacks and Israel's actions, wouldn't you agree?

Yes Israel's attacks have killed about 17 x more people by now.

 

[Rholk]

Yes Israel's attacks have killed about 17 x more people by now.

Might wanna specify the people that they killed though.

 

[Rholk]

Hamas is not the Palestinian people and I'm sure the US has no intention of working towards a Palestinian state that would have Hamas at the helm. That doesn't mean the Palestinian people should be deprived of self determination. After all the Zionists also committed terrorist attacks in the lead up to the founding of their nation, most notably the Deir Yassin massacre, and yet that did not invalidate the Zionist project in the eyes of the West.

Anything less than a serious commitment to Palestinian self determination, whether its one state or two states, is asking for this conflict to boil over again and again and again.

I agree that Hamas isnt the population, but they seem to overwhelmingly support Hamas.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I agree that Hamas isnt the population, but they seem to overwhelmingly support Hamas.

What are you basing this off of? The latest poll I saw recorded ~34% support for Hamas with more Palestinians saying they didn't support any party or didn't know. The leader of Hamas, Ismail Haniyeh, was projected to lose to Fatah candidate Marwan Borghouti.

 

[Rholk]

What are you basing this off of? The latest poll I saw recorded ~34% support for Hamas with more Palestinians saying they didn't support any party or didn't know. The leader of Hamas, Ismail Haniyeh, was projected to lose to Fatah candidate Marwan Borghouti.

It seems we have some very different sources

Poll: Hamas Remains Popular Among Palestinians

Palestinian support for Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza remains high, according to a Palestinian poll released on March 20. That support has increased since the Iran-backed terrorist...

www.fdd.org

Poll Reveals Persistent Palestinian Support for Hamas Attacks on Israel - The Media Line

Nearly six months after Hamas attacked Israel on […]

themedialine.org

 

[Hog-train]

Might wanna specify the people that they killed though.

Vast majority are civilians with a sizable portion being kids.

 

[BAM]

I think describing what is done in the West Bank as ethnic cleansing is reasonable. Its not a legal category so there is no one definition but its generally defined as the use of force and intimidation to remove expel one ethnic group for the purpose of establishing a demographic majority for another and I think that describes the expulsion campaign in the West Bank. What makes it less obvious is that Israel does it slowly and often through negligence and bureaucratic processes rather than overt military action the way you see in Myanmar against the Rohingya.

I think Bibi has intent to do some form of ethnic cleansing (vague term), if he gets his way and has a one state solution. What I mean is demographic control, violent and/or non-violent. He wants a Jewish majority and sovereignty from river to the sea. Given the birth rates, and eventual Palestinian majority, that's going to involve ethnic cleansing of some kind and/or some form of disenfranchisement/oppression. So, I think it's fair to call Likud's approach ethnic cleansing given his public speeches and his 'river to the sea' position of 30 years.

However, given that the world is pushing for a two-state solution, it will be characterised by diplomats, the public, media, and politicians as something else. Under a two-state solution it is merely illegal territorial acquisition and security to hold that territory.

I've posted an article here a few times from the left wing Israeli magazine +972 who did an investigation and claimed to have anonymous sources from within the IDF.

They did not claim that there was indiscriminate bombing but rather that they use a very loose criteria to establish targets and seem pressured to generate lots of them. Its like setting an unofficial quota for arrests in a PD. The officers won't arrest people at random, they will look for those whom they have a plausible pretense to arrest. But in many cases that will mean making arrests that aren't about public safety but rather about satisfying certain optics which does lead to injustice and sometimes the pretense is flimsy.

Here's an excerpt

The sourcing is that they have received calls from anonymous members of the intelligence community. No names, attributable quotes, audio recordings, video evidence. No evidence on the record. +972 takes conversations that they weren't a part of to allege facts. It's the definition of hearsay and would not be inadmissible in court. So, I don't put a tremendous amount of weight behind it and just take it as fact.

But, this story more or less tracks with my thinking - that these are targeted strikes, and there is a death calculus being done and that we don't know what goes into each strike analysis or the intelligence relied upon. The article suggests the rubric is vague and shifting, but there is no real document or instruction to point to for confirming this.

And we are not going to get their specific analysis for each bombing - that's active military strategy and intelligence. The US government as a term of the aid, should have its intelligence officers get that info, assess it, make a recommendation to Biden on whether it is appropriate.

It is then upon Americans to make it clear to Biden what is and isn't acceptable as far as moral principles and for him to communicate effectively with the public on how Israel does or does not meet those expectations in a general sense. This is more an American public v government issue rearing its head again - it's dysfunctional.

Would we be okay with Ukraine blowing up apartment buildings in Russia where off duty soldiers live? Idk that there's an obvious answer but I think its morally dubious. Here's another excerpt

That to me comes off as collective punishment. The AI thing is pretty creepy too. If there's sufficient human oversight I can see the value but with the number of targets Israel has went after during the war I am skeptical that there's a lot of vetting.

Yes, if you can't get them in the open field. There is no such thing as off-duty terrorist/soldier in active war. Don't go home if you know it will be bombed. Most militaries are separated into barracks for sleeping and don't go back home at night intermingling their families into the active war zone. The Hamas member is endangering his family and others, stay in the tunnels, 350 miles of tunnels.

Bombing the house/compound with the family in it is how America gets most of its high value targets like Osama bin Laden and Al-Baghdadi. Read about most of the top tier leaders of the past 30 years, they get assassinated at home and they get killed with their families.

 

[Rholk]

Vast majority are civilians with a sizable portion being kids.

If there's a source that isnt part of Hamas , i'm interested

 

[Chad R. Thundercock]

If by “agree” you mean we all knew what Israel’s plans were from the start, you’re right.

Hi, rape denier! I would like to hear your opinions on this video of a confession from a rapist/terrorist:

 

[Islam Imamate]

The sourcing is that they have received calls from anonymous members of the intelligence community. No names, attributable quotes, audio recordings, video evidence. No evidence on the record. +972 takes conversations that they weren't a part of to allege facts. It's the definition of hearsay and would not be inadmissible in court. So, I don't put a tremendous amount of weight behind it and just take it as fact.

Sure but I doubt anyone would go on record to talk about the war right now. There's only so much we can know as of now and probably ever. But as you said it tracks with my thinking of how they're conducting the war.

It seems we have some very different sources

Poll: Hamas Remains Popular Among Palestinians

Palestinian support for Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza remains high, according to a Palestinian poll released on March 20. That support has increased since the Iran-backed terrorist...

www.fdd.org

Poll Reveals Persistent Palestinian Support for Hamas Attacks on Israel - The Media Line

Nearly six months after Hamas attacked Israel on […]

themedialine.org

Nope, both those articles are linking to the PCPSR poll which I cited directly earlier. Again if you click the source link in those articles you'll find this

• When asked which political party or political trend they support, the largest percentage selected Hamas (34%), followed by Fatah (17%), while 11% selected other or third-party groups, and 37% said none of them or did not know. Three months ago, 43% supported Hamas and 17% selected Fatah. Six months ago, before the current war, support for Hamas stood at 22% and support for Fatah stood at 26%.This means that support for Hamas during the past three months has witnessed an 11-point drop while support for Fatah remained unchanged during the same period. In the West Bank, support for Hamas today stands at 35% (compared to 44% three months ago), and for Fatah at 12% (compared to 16% three months ago). In the Gaza Strip, support for Hamas today stands at 34% (compared to 42% three months ago) and support for Fatah at 25% (compared to 18% three months ago).

• If a presidential competition is to take place between three, Marwan Barghouti from Fatah, Mahmoud Abbas, also from Fatah, and Ismael Haniyeh from Hamas, participation in the election would stand at 72%; vote for Marwan Barghouti would stand at 40%, the highest rate in the last three hypothetical elections since September 2023, followed by Haniyeh at 23%, and Abbas at 8%. Among the voters, Barghouti receives 56%, Haniyeh 32%, and Abbas 11%. Three months ago, support for Barghouti among the voters stood at 47% and Haniyeh at 43%, and Abbas at 7%. These findings show Barghouti’s vote increasing by 9 points while vote for Haniyeh drops by 11 points.

Obviously Hamas does retain support among the population but I don't know where you're getting the idea that they overwhelmingly support Hamas. 34% support for the party and 23% for the leader in a projected presidential election doesn't suggest overwhelming support. More Palestinians answered that they supported "none or didn't know" than answered in favor of Hamas, not exactly a ringing endorsement.

This is the 2nd time someone has cited this poll indirectly through a slanted take on it. Why not just read the source directly? I don't get it.