Contraindicated Lifts aka The Stuff You Will Not Do??

You're all over the place. Basketball players don't do anything other than abs? You simply don't know what you're talking about but you insist on arguing as you do. It's quite frankly a little bit sad.
Well, at least, you're not posting walls of text again. Obscurantism is not nice to readers. Your (wrong) opinion is noted and snickerted at.

Yes I read the studies, I have them printet out right here besides me. I would suggest you read the abstract at least first. You're not understanding what's going on, and if your credentials are that you "know an olympic coach" and that's it then I think it's pretty safe to say you should pipe down.
Did you even read what I wrote? You read what studies? The ones you linked, that contradict you, or the ones about max strength increasing punching power, which I disagree with?

Also, let's say I'm a bum living under a bridge in Minnesota. That disproves my points how?

I've just never heard someone say "weighted jumps are basically the same as oly lifting" as there is a shitload more to oly lifting than that. Also, you are going on about loaded vs. unloaded movement, but in that same post, you talk of a loaded movement (oly lifting) having a benefit for vertical jump.
A vertical jump is a loaded movement (loaded with your bodyweight). Sprinting is, again, loaded with your bodyweight. Shot put is loaded with something heavier than javelin throwing, so the training for javelin throwers uses less extreme loads than the training for shot putting. Now, kicks and punches are not loaded. So you cannot just uses highly loaded exercises to train their speed (and thus, power, since power in punches and kicks is a matter of speed and moving your own weight, which many, many, people do not understand). Read my posts again.

Now I see that you are saying NBA players don't use plyos? Are you just trying to argue for the sake of arguing?
They mostly don't even do any conditioning, except for the cameras.
 
Lol at calling jumping a "loaded movement". I guess we'll start calling pushups a "loaded movement" too. I guess with punching and kicking you aren't moving any bodyweight. Talk about reaching....
 
@Oblivian you take this one I can't deal with this dude.
Ok, ok.

To get back at the point: I disagree with Oly lifts and plyometrics for increasing punching/kicking impact force. My sources: On hand experience and works on sports science. Exception: Being completely unconditioned, in which case any training will increase impact force.

You disagree with that. Your sources: Several, in my opinion questionable, studies.
 
Lol at calling jumping a "loaded movement". I guess we'll start calling pushups a "loaded movement" too. I guess with punching and kicking you aren't moving any bodyweight. Talk about reaching....
Of course pushups are a loaded movement.

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That's not reaching at all. It's just fact. And jumps are, of course, loaded with your bodyweight.
 
Yes, and you aren't moving bodyweight with punching and kicking.....
 
Yes, and you aren't moving bodyweight with punching and kicking.....
You want to equate moving your bodyweight in a punch and in push ups? Why? Even someone like you should realize it's a lot easier to punch 200 times than it is to do 200 pushups. Or that a punch is a lot faster than a pushup, which indicates the loads involved are different.

Or are you so fat your fist is as heavy as an average man? Then you'd have a point.
 
Ok, ok.

To get back at the point: I disagree with Oly lifts and plyometrics for increasing punching/kicking impact force. My sources: On hand experience and works on sports science. Exception: Being completely unconditioned, in which case any training will increase impact force.

You disagree with that. Your sources: Several, in my opinion questionable, studies.
Alright I'll take the bait here.

First of all, let's clear something up in regards to Basketball and if they do anything other than "abs" or whatever. Here is an article from 2005 in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, surveying 20 NBA S&C coaches.

"All coaches employed plyometric exercises with their athletes. The squat and its variations, as well as the Olympic-style lifts and their variations, were the most frequently used exercises. The survey serves as a review and a source of applied information and new ideas."
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16095396

I also happen to have a fellow physical therapist who does the S&C for a national level Basketball team here in Denmark. I've even helped him with some of it. We could also bring in other posters in this thread that has worked with national/international level Basketball players.

Yes, punching and kicking is unweighted, but you're forgetting two very important things. One is that power is not just speed. Power (watt or N/ms) is literally force (N) x velocity (m/s). As I said, even if it's unweighted 1) when you're hitting something heavy you create a certain amount of force generation to be able to transfer the force to the object and 2) it's the balance between the two aspects (velocity and force) that creates the most power in the individual.

The second thing you're forgetting is that punching in boxing is not arm punching. The hips and lower body generates most of the power which is why strong legs being able to eccentricly absorb more energy to transfer, a more forceful push into the ground (to improve reactionary forces) and a powerful hip turn let's you create more power as long as you can carry it through your core and upper body. Same with kicks.

Max velocity is best trained supramaximally yes, but olympic lifting at the right load intensity can still improve velocity and power. I wouldn't say it's the best, but it depends again on the person and the punch/kick.

Btw, I'm a physio who's competed in both amateur boxing and kickboxing, I work with athletes and fighters and I'm a huge biomechanics nerd.
 
You want to equate moving your bodyweight in a punch and in push ups? Why? Even someone like you should realize it's a lot easier to punch 200 times than it is to do 200 pushups. Or that a punch is a lot faster than a pushup, which indicates the loads involved are different.

Or are you so fat your fist is as heavy as an average man? Then you'd have a point.

Are you moving bodyweight on a punch and kick? Your entire argument for a "loaded movement" is that you are moving bodyweight.
 
Alright I'll take the bait here.

First of all, let's clear something up in regards to Basketball and if they do anything other than "abs" or whatever. Here is an article from 2005 in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, surveying 20 NBA S&C coaches.
Then maybe you should watch those guys train sometimes. Nothing, I mean nothing, I have ever seen of basketball guys, ESPECIALLY NBA guys, goes much beyond "some jumps here and there" (no plyos), "some crunches" and "a lot of playing ball". In fact, they keep down their jumping exercises as much as possible since they do it a lot while playing already and don't want knee problems. They do different things on TV or for visitors, though.

I also happen to have a fellow physical therapist who does the S&C for a national level Basketball team here in Denmark. I've even helped him with some of it. We could also bring in other posters in this thread that has worked with national/international level Basketball players.
Denmark is in the NBA now? But you being Scandi explains many things.

Yes, punching and kicking is unweighted, but you're forgetting two very important things. One is that power is not just speed. Power (watt or N/ms) is literally force (N) x velocity (m/s). As I said, even if it's unweighted 1) when you're hitting something heavy you create a certain amount of force generation to be able to transfer the force to the object and 2) it's the balance between the two aspects that creates the most power in the individual.
Hence why I wrote "impact force" and not "impact power", because I know guys like you cannot live with colloquial definitions. And Impact Force is a lot different from "power". My English fails me, but that's why I was going on and on about shot putters vs javelin throwers as an example.

The second thing you're forgetting is that punching in boxing is not arm punching. The hips and lower body generates most of the power which is why strong legs being able to eccentricly absorb more energy to transfer, a more forceful push into the ground (to improve reactionary forces) and a powerful hip turn let's you create more power as long as you can carry it through your core and upper body. Same with kicks.
That view is based on a misinterpreted study by Filimonov, iirc. I'm not gonna teach some Scandinavian leftist about how to punch and kick correctly, no way, but suffice to say that the load on the legs and hips during punches had and has NOTHING to do with the strength and power of the legs and hips per se (say, in jumping, squatting, oly lifting, etc). As I said, it's a misinterpretation of the data.

Max velocity is best trained supramaximally yes, but olympic lifting at the right load intensity can still improve velocity and power. I wouldn't say it's the best, but it depends again on the person and the punch/kick.
Well, as I said, if you have an unconditioned characteristic in your portfolio, then of course it will work, anything will.

Btw, I'm a physio who's competed in both amateur boxing and kickboxing, I work with athletes and fighters and I'm a huge biomechanics nerd.
That is good for you, much success to you.
 
Are you moving bodyweight on a punch and kick? Your entire argument for a "loaded movement" is that you are moving bodyweight.
NO.

Holy crap, excuse my French, but this is really going nowhere. Are you playing stupid or something? Do you think you move your bodyweight by punching? If anything, your body moves your limb in punching, and nor the other way around like in jumping and doing pushups. Do you have trouble understanding this? Or do you insist that "sitting on your punches" is basically doing pushups?

But that would be asinine.
 
NO.

Holy crap, excuse my French, but this is really going nowhere. Are you playing stupid or something? Do you think you move your bodyweight by punching? If anything, your body moves your limb in punching, and nor the other way around like in jumping and doing pushups. Do you have trouble understanding this? Or do you insist that "sitting on your punches" is basically doing pushups?

But that would be asinine.

Dude, you are the one that said "weighted jumps are basically the same as oly lifting". You are saying that your feet leaving the ground on a jump constitutes a "loaded movement". That's completely asinine. You then try to prove your point by saying a punch isn't a loaded movement under your definition because "it's a lost easier to punch 200 times than do 200 pushups". Well I'd like you to see me jump rope sometime, because I sure as hell can do 200 jumps quicker than 200 punches. Yet a jump is a "loaded movement" under your definition, and a punch isn't? You are just trying to save face because you contradicted yourself in your own post saying oly lifting helps jumping, but then later saying loaded movement can't help a non-loaded movement.

And lol at trying to act like you are so familiar with oly lifters training, NBA training, and then fight training. Trying a bit too hard to win the internet today?
 
I think you might be able change a few things around in regards to the squat and bench and perhaps decrease your injury risk and pain, but that's hard to say without having you in person. Ultimately you know your body best and should do what keeps you pain free!

I take it with your posts, and attention to detail that you are in the field or have a strong interest in it? lol

As far as my back I had a "rotated vertebrae" (doctor's words) and I underwent rehabilitation for it. I also had a pinched nerve in my neck, which the doctor said may have stemmed from whatever had caused the alignment issues that I had (I am pretty sure I know what it was). He did not know if the pain would ever completely go away as I had the "rotated vertebrae" for some time and was never seen for it.

It is a chronic injury that comes and goes. Some days I'll feel on top of the world, and other days the pain that I felt will flare up. I typically avoid back squats because of this. I prefer the Jefferson squats because I don't have to compress my neck or low back and can lift the weight from the ground.

There are probably a few things that I could change indeed. Form is everything. Most injuries I have had came from one lousy rep that did me in. That is why I always say it's usually not an if situation but a when. I typically avoid the (traditional) big three minus deadlifts. For bench and squat I usually go with a variant.

Your posts are very informative, and appreciated. Thanks for the consideration.

Out of curiosity, do you have any recommendations from what you know about a case such as mine? How would you train a person having a history like the one I described who wanted to squat or at least wanted the benefits that come from squatting? Would you coach them through it or make other recommendations to get comparable results?
 
Then maybe you should watch those guys train sometimes. Nothing, I mean nothing, I have ever seen of basketball guys, ESPECIALLY NBA guys, goes much beyond "some jumps here and there" (no plyos), "some crunches" and "a lot of playing ball". In fact, they keep down their jumping exercises as much as possible since they do it a lot while playing already and don't want knee problems. They do different things on TV or for visitors, though.


Denmark is in the NBA now? But you being Scandi explains many things.


Hence why I wrote "impact force" and not "impact power", because I know guys like you cannot live with colloquial definitions. And Impact Force is a lot different from "power". My English fails me, but that's why I was going on and on about shot putters vs javelin throwers as an example.


That view is based on a misinterpreted study by Filimonov, iirc. I'm not gonna teach some Scandinavian leftist about how to punch and kick correctly, no way, but suffice to say that the load on the legs and hips during punches had and has NOTHING to do with the strength and power of the legs and hips per se (say, in jumping, squatting, oly lifting, etc). As I said, it's a misinterpretation of the data.


Well, as I said, if you have an unconditioned characteristic in your portfolio, then of course it will work, anything will.


That is good for you, much success to you.
You've just had evidence presented to you from 20 NBA S&C coaches, directly from the horses mouth, yet you disagree because reasons and you expect us to take your word for it. Someone who has no background in anything relevant and has never trained an athlete. Do you not see how delusonal this makes you seem?

Also, your claim that lower body forc and power, and hip extension/rotation force and power doesn't impact punching power is a pretty far out there statement. It's not a one to one transferability, and there's more than one way to generate power, but they certainly do matter. Are you saying you don't use leg drive and that increasing that drive doesn't create more power? Anyone with any knowledge of biomehanics and physics would know that's not true. This has been studied extensively in any and all throwing and batting sports, from golf, to baseball to shotput.

Btw:

"Strength and Power Qualities Are Highly Associated With Punching Impact in Elite Amateur Boxers."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26110348

"Predicting punching acceleration from selected strength and power variables in elite karate athletes: a multiple regression analysis."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24276310


Nothing is certainly set in stone, and there's so many factors that contribute, and again it depends on the individual. Some are very strong, but slow, other are very fast but weak. Also, the biomehanics of the drills, power and strength work has to be taken into consideration, not to mention the history of the athlete.

I'm not a "max strength" kinda guy at all. It's just a tool, that may or may not be useful. Nothing beats technique, biomechanics and kinetic efficiency.
 
I take it with your posts, and attention to detail that you are in the field or have a strong interest in it? lol

As far as my back I had a "rotated vertebrae" (doctor's words) and I underwent rehabilitation for it. I also had a pinched nerve in my neck, which the doctor said may have stemmed from whatever had caused the alignment issues that I had (I am pretty sure I know what it was). He did not know if the pain would ever completely go away as I had the "rotated vertebrae" for some time and was never seen for it.

It is a chronic injury that comes and goes. Some days I'll feel on top of the world, and other days the pain that I felt will flare up. I typically avoid back squats because of this. I prefer the Jefferson squats because I don't have to compress my neck or low back and can lift the weight from the ground.

There are probably a few things that I could change indeed. Form is everything. Most injuries I have had came from one lousy rep that did me in. That is why I always say it's usually not an if situation but a when. I typically avoid the (traditional) big three minus deadlifts. For bench and squat I usually go with a variant.

Your posts are very informative, and appreciated. Thanks for the consideration.

Out of curiosity, do you have any recommendations from what you know about a case such as mine? How would you train a person having a history like the one I described who wanted to squat or at least wanted the benefits that come from squatting? Would you coach them through it or make other recommendations to get comparable results?
Yeah I'm a physical therapist.

Form is one thing yes, but I'm also talking about playing around with load, range of motion, modifications of the exercise, using other tools to assist and so on. However, I think you're making the right call in doing what you feel is safer, especially if you're worried about pain or injury. You don't HAVE to do the big three at all, and if you do them, you can modify them to your needs. Jefferson deadlifts are really cool, so there's that too.

In regards to your specific issue, I couldn't say. I mean, I would have to know the exact diagnosis and I would have to see you move and do the exercises, besides having a talk about how you feel when doing them. It's simply not something that could be done over the internet. Again, I think you should just stick with what works for you, as you can get very simular, and in some cases superior, benefits from other exercises. As long as it's making you stronger and healthier, it's good.

If you really want to get it looked at more thoroughly, I would suggest seeking out a qualified physical therapy who has experience in treating the isssues you are dealing with.

Keep up the good work!
 
You've just had evidence presented to you from 20 NBA S&C coaches, directly from the horses mouth, yet you disagree because reasons and you expect us to take your word for it. Someone who has no background in anything relevant and has never trained an athlete. Do you not see how delusonal this makes you seem?
Argumentum ad authority isn't really any good way to argue. If it was, I'd have finished the discussion by quoting Verkhoshansky, Bondarchuk, Zatsiorski, etc. all of which had and have a higher standing in the sports science world, being practically legends. I mean, how many Olympic champions in how many sports have those guys, or you, produced?

See how that goes? But it isn't an argument really. Not to mention you don't know at all who I am, while you (and your buttbuddy) think being a physio is something special. It isn't. I feel like arguing with a nurse, tbh.

Also, your claim that lower body forc and power, and hip extension/rotation force and power doesn't impact punching power is a pretty far out there statement. It's not a one to one transferability, and there's more than one way to generate power, but they certainly do matter. Are you saying you don't use leg drive and that increasing that drive doesn't create more power? Anyone with any knowledge of biomehanics and physics would know that's not true. This has been studied extensively in any and all throwing and batting sports, from golf, to baseball to shotput.
All of which have (well, almost) nothing to do with boxing. It's also not about leg drive per se - since that would very much depend on the strength of your legs. Punching doesn't.

Btw:
"Strength and Power Qualities Are Highly Associated With Punching Impact in Elite Amateur Boxers."
"Predicting punching acceleration from selected strength and power variables in elite karate athletes: a multiple regression analysis."

See? You found them. As I said, I disagree with those studies (among others).

Nothing is certainly set in stone, and there's so many factors that contribute, and again it depends on the individual. Some are very strong, but slow, other are very fast but weak. Also, the biomehanics of the drills, power and strength work has to be taken into consideration, not to mention the history of the athlete.
Actually, there are many things set in stone. People are individuals, but not that much. It's just that most of what people know - and I'm pretty sure most of what you learned, because quite a while ago, I had to learn the same, wrong things - is wrong, plain and simple. And it was quite a leap for me to accept that in the beginning, but it makes sense after a while.

I'm not a "max strength" kinda guy at all. It's just a tool, that may or may not be useful. Nothing beats technique, biomechanics and kinetic efficiency.
I can agree with that, at least.

Dude, you are the one that said "weighted jumps are basically the same as oly lifting". You are saying that your feet leaving the ground on a jump constitutes a "loaded movement". That's completely asinine. You then try to prove your point by saying a punch isn't a loaded movement under your definition because "it's a lost easier to punch 200 times than do 200 pushups". Well I'd like you to see me jump rope sometime, because I sure as hell can do 200 jumps quicker than 200 punches. Yet a jump is a "loaded movement" under your definition, and a punch isn't? You are just trying to save face because you contradicted yourself in your own post saying oly lifting helps jumping, but then later saying loaded movement can't help a non-loaded movement.
If you can do 200 rope jumps quicker than 200 punches, then you're in the wrong sport. Maybe try wearing a little skirt and join the girls down the street. Should be up your alley.
And you're apparently intellectually challenged too, the way you skittle around the argument and invent all kinds of new ones.

I said an Oly lift is pretty much the same movement as a jump. Which is obviously true, I could look up some quotes for that, but I hope you're not so stupid you don't see that (not sure though, lemme know, kid). Then you equate a jump with rope skipping. At which point I think you're trolling or literally retarded. Will you include the phrase "jumping to conclusions" next? We can only wait in shivering anticipation. And yes, a jump is a loaded movement and a punch or kick isn't. I'm wondering why you have such a hard time understanding that - better wear a headgear from now on.

And lol at trying to act like you are so familiar with oly lifters training, NBA training, and then fight training. Trying a bit too hard to win the internet today?
I understand you have some trouble recognizing that different people lead different lives. Or maybe you're just full of s*it.
 
Brb going to do the king of loaded movements....BW squat.
 
Wow this thread took a turn. I'm no expert on oly lifting but I was thinking the jerk specifically would have the most carry over to punching since the the mechanics of it seem the most similar while being loaded. You have to have your arms relaxed and drive with your hips and legs to punch and contract at the moment of impact. The jerk seems similarly since lifters are driving with their hips and legs and contracting their arms at the catch, which is the end of the movement like a punch. And of course you can load the movement as well.

In comparison, the usual loaded punching exercises boxers do like punching while holding light weights or using a band for resistance doesn't seem like it will help with punching mechanics since your arms have to be contracted to hold on to the resistance. It might even be detrimental to explosive punching since it becomes more of a pushing movement and anyone who knows anything about fighting knows that you don't want to push your punches. But it might help with conditioning depending how the fighter programs it into his training.

I won't do back squats anymore. I just can't keep good form once the weight gets heavy and get brutal golfers elbow and patellar tendinitis because of it. I just deadlift and leg press instead, although it's not the same. Sucks, squats were by far my best lift.

~DaViD~

Have you tried different hand placement? I used to have bad elbow pain (only my left elbow for some reason) and now I do squats with an thumbless grip and rotate my arms back to try to minimize how much my arms support the weight. It's gotten better but it still hurts some time to time. I'm worried after a certain point I won't be able to do squats either.
 
Wow this thread took a turn. I'm no expert on oly lifting but I was thinking the jerk specifically would have the most carry over to punching since the the mechanics of it seem the most similar while being loaded. You have to have your arms relaxed and drive with your hips and legs to punch and contract at the moment of impact. The jerk seems similarly since lifters are driving with their hips and legs and contracting their arms at the catch, which is the end of the movement like a punch. And of course you can load the movement as well.

In comparison, the usual loaded punching exercises boxers do like punching while holding light weights or using a band for resistance doesn't seem like it will help with punching mechanics since your arms have to be contracted to hold on to the resistance. It might even be detrimental to explosive punching since it becomes more of a pushing movement and anyone who knows anything about fighting knows that you don't want to push your punches. But it might help with conditioning depending how the fighter programs it into his training.



Have you tried different hand placement? I used to have bad elbow pain (only my left elbow for some reason) and now I do squats with an thumbless grip and rotate my arms back to try to minimize how much my arms support the weight. It's gotten better but it still hurts some time to time. I'm worried after a certain point I won't be able to do squats either.
I think that would correct the issue mostly from what I've read but I also get the knee pain and I'm a contractor so it makes work hell. I always did thumb in grip and my wrists were always bent to an extent

~DaViD~
 
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