Contraindicated Lifts aka The Stuff You Will Not Do??

I can't think of another athletic movement that requires the speed, coordination, and explosiveness that can be progressively loaded to the extent Olympic lifts can be. To me they seem like the most useful training tool using weights. A medicine ball or sledge hammer can only get so heavy but you can load twice your body weight on the bar and still perform a clean. If a fighter was trying to train explosiveness, to me it seems doing 200lb cleans or whatever would do more for him than if he was slamming down a 10lb medicine ball.

The only issue would be that they're technically demanding so athletes will have to take time away from their sport to become proficient at them.
I mean it all depends. Factors like which athlete are we dealing with, what is the task that needs to be done and where does both of those things exist on the force-velocity curve. Then you have another factor of sport/biomechanic specific vs not. No doubt that olympic lifts are amazing, and as far as strength-speed goes it's hard to match.
 
I won't do back squats anymore. I just can't keep good form once the weight gets heavy and get brutal golfers elbow and patellar tendinitis because of it. I just deadlift and leg press instead, although it's not the same. Sucks, squats were by far my best lift.

~DaViD~
 
Keep that anti-intellectualism shit to the war room dumbass.
"Anti-intellectualism". Just lol. For someone cheering on rapists and murderers you got quite the big mouth.

I mean it all depends. Factors like which athlete are we dealing with, what is the task that needs to be done and where does both of those things exist on the force-velocity curve. Then you have another factor of sport/biomechanic specific vs not. No doubt that olympic lifts are amazing, and as far as strength-speed goes it's hard to match.
I'd expect you being more well-read in Soviet sports science, being a dirty Commie and all that. The fact is that unloaded and loaded movements are trained differently.

Example: Loaded speed strength, for example jumping (wherein the load is your bodyweight), are trained perfectly with Oly lifts. But unloaded speed strength, for example used in punches and kicks, is not trained that way, but instead with low weight and fast reps.

Verkhoshansky wrote something like 20% of your max and up to 20 reps - the classical "light weights and fast reps" propagated by every Karate sensei and boxing coach and ridiculed by the internet "experts".

The only exception are people who are so weak and unconditioned that literally any training improves their performance.
 
"Anti-intellectualism". Just lol. For someone cheering on rapists and murderers you got quite the big mouth.


I'd expect you being more well-read in Soviet sports science, being a dirty Commie and all that. The fact is that unloaded and loaded movements are trained differently.

Example: Loaded speed strength, for example jumping (wherein the load is your bodyweight), are trained perfectly with Oly lifts. But unloaded speed strength, for example used in punches and kicks, is not trained that way, but instead with low weight and fast reps.

Verkhoshansky wrote something like 20% of your max and up to 20 reps - the classical "light weights and fast reps" propagated by every Karate sensei and boxing coach and ridiculed by the internet "experts".

The only exception are people who are so weak and unconditioned that literally any training improves their performance.
Again, it depends entirely on the task and the athlete.

Verkhoshansky, and after that Yessis, has done some great work on plyometrics and the SSC, but it's not the holy grail of exercise science, nor does it have to be. Yes oly lifts have a great carryover to vertical jumping because of the loading schemes and biomechanics (triple extension), but various other exercises including plyometrics, supramaximal/assisted jumps, various squat/trapbar jumps and even increasing MVC seperately has been shown in the literature to improve vertical to the same degree. The key is finding out what your athlete needs.

Btw, maximum power as in watt, is a measure of velocity x force. This most often peaks around 30-40% of 1RM, but it's probably trainable within 20-80% 1RM to some degree. However, sticking with the vertical jump as an example, power is not the only factor. The balance of the two variables, force and velocity, matters equally. In some cases, velocity training, even supramaximal velocity training (which cannot be done with olympic lifts) is more important, in others increase MVC is more important. Morin et al have done some really interesting stuff recently showing that power can stay the same, while vertical can improve, as long as the balance between the two are more evenly matched to the persons ability. If you really want to know, you can check these two out:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...iles_for_Individualized_and_Specific_Training
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ed_on_Force-Velocity_Profiling_during_Jumping

I'd highly recommend JB Morin and Samozino for this, they are doing some excellent work right now.

Further, biomechanics matter. Olympic lifting might improve power in punching as well, but it's more geared toward upward and forward momentum, depending on how you modify the exercises. I use them as well, but more for the right hand transfer and only applicable for a specific point on the force-velocity curve. There's no hip rotation which is a downside, and you can't do supramaximal velocity work with it as well. Luckely, there's plenty of other training tools including medballs and bands.
 
There's nothing I wont do!

PS: A contraindicaton is a medical term meaning a symptom or pathology that makes a certain rehab or medical treatment non feasible. It doesn't mean something you dont want to do for whatever reason.
Thank you, Sano. I didn’t realize so many people misunderstood the meaning of ‘contraindication.’
 
Again, it depends entirely on the task and the athlete.

Verkhoshansky, and after that Yessis, has done some great work on plyometrics and the SSC, but it's not the holy grail of exercise science, nor does it have to be. Yes oly lifts have a great carryover to vertical jumping because of the loading schemes and biomechanics (triple extension), but various other exercises including plyometrics, supramaximal/assisted jumps, various squat/trapbar jumps and even increasing MVC seperately has been shown in the literature to improve vertical to the same degree. The key is finding out what your athlete needs.
Plyometrics aren't used in athletes over 200 lbs. Jumping increases the skill of jumping obviously, so that's nothing to do with Oly or not Oly. And weighted jumps are basically the same as Oly lifting, if we're honest (since Oly lifting IS a jumping movement mostly). So of course all this improves the vertical jump performance, but that was not the point of my post.

Btw, maximum power as in watt, is a measure of velocity x force. This most often peaks around 30-40% of 1RM, but it's probably trainable within 20-80% 1RM to some degree.
Are we even talking the same point now? Try to train at 80% RM for punching and see for yourself. Or 20% for jumping.

However, sticking with the vertical jump as an example, power is not the only factor. The balance of the two variables, force and velocity, matters equally. In some cases, velocity training, even supramaximal velocity training (which cannot be done with olympic lifts) is more important, in others increase MVC is more important. Morin et al have done some really interesting stuff recently showing that power can stay the same, while vertical can improve, as long as the balance between the two are more evenly matched to the persons ability. If you really want to know, you can check these two out:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...iles_for_Individualized_and_Specific_Training
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ed_on_Force-Velocity_Profiling_during_Jumping

I'd highly recommend JB Morin and Samozino for this, they are doing some excellent work right now.
They are, as usual for Americans, putting max strength on a pedestal, then wondering why they lose at the Olympics.

Further, biomechanics matter. Olympic lifting might improve power in punching as well, but it's more geared toward upward and forward momentum, depending on how you modify the exercises. I use them as well, but more for the right hand transfer and only applicable for a specific point on the force-velocity curve. There's no hip rotation which is a downside, and you can't do supramaximal velocity work with it as well. Luckely, there's plenty of other training tools including medballs and bands.
No, Oly lifting doesn't improve punching. I know there are studies to the contrary, but those are wrong. Again, loaded vs unloaded movement. The rest is marketing and funding.
 
Plyometrics aren't used in athletes over 200 lbs. Jumping increases the skill of jumping obviously, so that's nothing to do with Oly or not Oly. And weighted jumps are basically the same as Oly lifting, if we're honest (since Oly lifting IS a jumping movement mostly). So of course all this improves the vertical jump performance, but that was not the point of my post.

Are we even talking the same point now? Try to train at 80% RM for punching and see for yourself. Or 20% for jumping.

They are, as usual for Americans, putting max strength on a pedestal, then wondering why they lose at the Olympics.

No, Oly lifting doesn't improve punching. I know there are studies to the contrary, but those are wrong. Again, loaded vs unloaded movement. The rest is marketing and funding.
I'm quite honestly perplexed by this response.

Yes Plyos are used in athletes if suitable, even those over 200lbs. T&F? Basketball? Vollyball? Javelin? Sprinting? So on. Plyos also doesn't have to be jumping either, it's anything that involves targeting the SSC response and can be done with upper body work too.

I don't know what your point is. Yes you can train an exercise at 80% with the idea of it to carry over to punching power. Obviously that is not velocity training. 20% for power on jumps, like say 20% of your 1RM squat jump with good form, is quite commonly used. Same with sled drags for acceleration phase of the sprint.

Americans? The authors are French dude. Did you even look at the abstract? They also don't glorify max strength at all, they incorperate SUPRAMAXIMAL velocity work if that's what the athlete needs, which is to say that it's even faster than what you could do completely unloaded. It couldn't be further away from max strength, it's at the complete opposite end of the FV spectrum.

Show me the studies you are talking about and explain to me why they are wrong. What's your background btw?
 
Plyometrics aren't used in athletes over 200 lbs. Jumping increases the skill of jumping obviously, so that's nothing to do with Oly or not Oly. And weighted jumps are basically the same as Oly lifting, if we're honest (since Oly lifting IS a jumping movement mostly). So of course all this improves the vertical jump performance, but that was not the point of my post.


Are we even talking the same point now? Try to train at 80% RM for punching and see for yourself. Or 20% for jumping.


They are, as usual for Americans, putting max strength on a pedestal, then wondering why they lose at the Olympics.


No, Oly lifting doesn't improve punching. I know there are studies to the contrary, but those are wrong. Again, loaded vs unloaded movement. The rest is marketing and funding.

What the hell am I reading?
 
asian-guy-crazy-weight-lifting-gym-13984503324.gif

What is this?!! I've seen judokas and "samboists" (is that the official term?) do this, mainly those from Russia or the Asia Pacific. I admittedly tried it once lol but had a hard time conceptualizing what it was used for, and why I wouldn't use my time doing something else? I don't do exercises unless I can explain them, that is my rule.

In any case, anyone have any insight to this one? lol
 
What is this?!! I've seen judokas and "samboists" (is that the official term?) do this, mainly those from Russia or the Asia Pacific. I admittedly tried it once lol but had a hard time conceptualizing what it was used for, and why I wouldn't use my time doing something else? I don't do exercises unless I can explain them, that is my rule.

In any case, anyone have any insight to this one? lol
Fedor used to do it a lot.



It makes sense in a few ways. It's somewhat high velocity, in the speed-strength area, it's upper body working relevant muscles for punching, it arguably trains the SSC depending on the velocity of the person doing it AND it's oscillating training meaning you HAVE to relax/contract/relax in a way that definitely improves velocity. To clarify, you have to be able to decrease co-contraction and active the antagonist muscles less if you want to do the exercise properly. Less antagonist activation plays a big role in high velocity movement.

EDIT: The guy in the gif is not doing it well/it's too heavy for him and he is too tight. I also wouldn't say it's necessarily good for everyone.
 
There's nothing I wont do!

PS: A contraindicaton is a medical term meaning a symptom or pathology that makes a certain rehab or medical treatment non feasible. It doesn't mean something you dont want to do for whatever reason.

True, that is the most general recognition of it. This is the definition I googled:

"(of a condition or circumstance) suggest or indicate that (a particular technique or drug) should not be used in the case in question."

From an exercise physiology standpoint "contraindicated lifts (exercises)":

"Contraindicated exercises by definition are “known to be risky” because they weaken vertebral discs, ligaments, and tendons that may be damaged at a later time or injured during the time of performance."
(https://www.nfpt.com/blog/top-10-contraindicated-exercises-pt-2)

Contraindicated exercise may not be advisable because of an underlying condition or avoiding an injury. I mentioned that in my original post. I opened up the discussion to be more inclusive as to allow people to explain why they won't do them or prefer not to.

If we look at exercise as preventive medicine then we are using exercises as treatment plans. Some treatment plans may not be best for some patients (clients).

Hospitals do have trainers, and exercise physiologists in them.
 
I'm quite honestly perplexed by this response.
That's probably because I actually know Olympic coaches personally and you don't. Meaning: I know the theory, I know the theories you subscribe to, but I also know the practice in sport. Which in many cases differs a lot from the studies and theories.

Yes Plyos are used in athletes if suitable, even those over 200lbs. T&F? Basketball? Vollyball? Javelin? Sprinting?
That's what the inventors of Plyometrics said, refero relata.

Btw, sprinters are seldom over 200, or even 200 lbs. Usain Bolt is one example, but I'd be hard pressed to remember another one. Sprinters, as a rule, aren't that big. Same thing for many Track and Field events, excluding, obviously, the heavy throwers. Basketballers are a different animal and mostly do not do plyometrics, in fact, they almost don't do any conditioning except abs training and some stuff for the cameras.

So on. Plyos also doesn't have to be jumping either, it's anything that involves targeting the SSC response and can be done with upper body work too.
But again, I am only referring to what the actual coaches say - plyometrics for people over 200 lbs are not to be used. I know some heavy guys use weights to do it (and pay the price very quickly). But then again, most shot putters also bench over ~1.6xBW which is pretty useless in the sport.

I don't know what your point is. Yes you can train an exercise at 80% with the idea of it to carry over to punching power. Obviously that is not velocity training. 20% for power on jumps, like say 20% of your 1RM squat jump with good form, is quite commonly used. Same with sled drags for acceleration phase of the sprint.
My point is unloaded and loaded movements are differently trained, which is also the reason shot putters train differently from javelin throwers and discus throwers. And I disagree on the 80% RM for punching power, that will not work, it will probably be detrimental in fact.

Americans? The authors are French dude. Did you even look at the abstract? They also don't glorify max strength at all, they incorperate SUPRAMAXIMAL velocity work if that's what the athlete needs, which is to say that it's even faster than what you could do completely unloaded. It couldn't be further away from max strength, it's at the complete opposite end of the FV spectrum.
Okay, first, it doesn't matter what nationality they are, since exercise ideas don't respect borders. I'll still call the Soviet sports science "Soviet" even if it was done in the GDR or Antarctica - because that's where the base comes from. Consequently, the worship of max strength as a panacea is typically American.

Now, no, I didn't read the abstract, since you said it's only "if I'm interested", which I'm not. I was under the incorrect assumption you'd post a study that supports your points. Which the study apparently doesn't. It supports mine. In fact, it completely contradicts you, if I don't completely misread it: Higher load trains for power under a high loaded, but for pure speed, you need low resistance, which can also help. As in: Training for jumping and sprinting out of blocks and similar things. None of the studies is about punching and kicking.

Since I never denied you need a sizeable strength level for moving fast under load, I'm getting a bit confused now. I guess that was the point.

Show me the studies you are talking about and explain to me why they are wrong. What's your background btw?
You can look up many via google, those should suffice for the sake of argument. Those studies about a punching force increase via heavy weight training are never reproduced, always differ in methology and contradict basically every other sport training methology.

And my background is of course, none of your business. Suffice to say I know some Olympic coaches personally and have been very interested in the science and practice of sports for quite some time. If that's not enough for you, I guess you can stay in your little echo chambers.
 
Fedor used to do it a lot.



It makes sense in a few ways. It's somewhat high velocity, in the speed-strength area, it's upper body working relevant muscles for punching, it arguably trains the SSC depending on the velocity of the person doing it AND it's oscillating training meaning you HAVE to relax/contract/relax in a way that definitely improves velocity. To clarify, you have to be able to decrease co-contraction and active the antagonist muscles less if you want to do the exercise properly. Less antagonist activation plays a big role in high velocity movement.

EDIT: The guy in the gif is not doing it well/it's too heavy for him and he is too tight. I also wouldn't say it's necessarily good for everyone.


That was insightful. I always thought it was there way to drill off balancing. The only people I've seen do it have been judokas and "samboists" and their common attribute is working with the gi or jacket, pushing and pulling for the off balance. Fedor was one of the examples I had seen. He's a beast. I don't question beasts lol. If it works for them, it works for them. haha
 
True, that is the most general recognition of it. This is the definition I googled:

"(of a condition or circumstance) suggest or indicate that (a particular technique or drug) should not be used in the case in question."

From an exercise physiology standpoint "contraindicated lifts (exercises)":

"Contraindicated exercises by definition are “known to be risky” because they weaken vertebral discs, ligaments, and tendons that may be damaged at a later time or injured during the time of performance."
(https://www.nfpt.com/blog/top-10-contraindicated-exercises-pt-2)

Contraindicated exercise may not be advisable because of an underlying condition or avoiding an injury. I mentioned that in my original post. I opened up the discussion to be more inclusive as to allow people to explain why they won't do them or prefer not to.

If we look at exercise as preventive medicine then we are using exercises as treatment plans. Some treatment plans may not be best for some patients (clients).

Hospitals do have trainers, and exercise physiologists in them.
That's just not how you use the word correctly.

This: "(of a condition or circumstance) suggest or indicate that (a particular technique or drug) should not be used in the case in question.", is right, and the reason is because of either symptomatology or pathology telling us not to do it. Pain can be a contraindication too.

"Contraindicated exercises by definition are “known to be risky” because they weaken vertebral discs, ligaments, and tendons that may be damaged at a later time or injured during the time of performance."
(https://www.nfpt.com/blog/top-10-contraindicated-exercises-pt-2)

This one is not entire correct. I mean, they might have tried to coin that term and changed the definition as fitness trainers, but that's not how it's used. A contraindicated exercises has to have a specific underlying symptomatic or pathological reason for being named as such, most often pathological. It's not just about what exercises you do not do or don't like for whatever reason.

It's not hugely important to the content of this thread, but that's the right use of the word.
 
That's probably because I actually know Olympic coaches personally and you don't. Meaning: I know the theory, I know the theories you subscribe to, but I also know the practice in sport. Which in many cases differs a lot from the studies and theories.


That's what the inventors of Plyometrics said, refero relata.

Btw, sprinters are seldom over 200, or even 200 lbs. Usain Bolt is one example, but I'd be hard pressed to remember another one. Sprinters, as a rule, aren't that big. Same thing for many Track and Field events, excluding, obviously, the heavy throwers. Basketballers are a different animal and mostly do not do plyometrics, in fact, they almost don't do any conditioning except abs training and some stuff for the cameras.


But again, I am only referring to what the actual coaches say - plyometrics for people over 200 lbs are not to be used. I know some heavy guys use weights to do it (and pay the price very quickly). But then again, most shot putters also bench over ~1.6xBW which is pretty useless in the sport.


My point is unloaded and loaded movements are differently trained, which is also the reason shot putters train differently from javelin throwers and discus throwers. And I disagree on the 80% RM for punching power, that will not work, it will probably be detrimental in fact.


Okay, first, it doesn't matter what nationality they are, since exercise ideas don't respect borders. I'll still call the Soviet sports science "Soviet" even if it was done in the GDR or Antarctica - because that's where the base comes from. Consequently, the worship of max strength as a panacea is typically American.

Now, no, I didn't read the abstract, since you said it's only "if I'm interested", which I'm not. I was under the incorrect assumption you'd post a study that supports your points. Which the study apparently doesn't. It supports mine. In fact, it completely contradicts you, if I don't completely misread it: Higher load trains for power under a high loaded, but for pure speed, you need low resistance, which can also help. As in: Training for jumping and sprinting out of blocks and similar things. None of the studies is about punching and kicking.

Since I never denied you need a sizeable strength level for moving fast under load, I'm getting a bit confused now. I guess that was the point.


You can look up many via google, those should suffice for the sake of argument. Those studies about a punching force increase via heavy weight training are never reproduced, always differ in methology and contradict basically every other sport training methology.

And my background is of course, none of your business. Suffice to say I know some Olympic coaches personally and have been very interested in the science and practice of sports for quite some time. If that's not enough for you, I guess you can stay in your little echo chambers.
You're all over the place. Basketball players don't do anything other than abs? You simply don't know what you're talking about but you insist on arguing as you do. It's quite frankly a little bit sad.

Yes I read the studies, I have them printet out right here besides me. I would suggest you read the abstract at least first. You're not understanding what's going on, and if your credentials are that you "know an olympic coach" and that's it then I think it's pretty safe to say you should pipe down.
 
That's just not how you use the word correctly.

This: "(of a condition or circumstance) suggest or indicate that (a particular technique or drug) should not be used in the case in question.", is right, and the reason is because of either symptomatology or pathology telling us not to do it. Pain can be a contraindication too.

"Contraindicated exercises by definition are “known to be risky” because they weaken vertebral discs, ligaments, and tendons that may be damaged at a later time or injured during the time of performance."
(https://www.nfpt.com/blog/top-10-contraindicated-exercises-pt-2)

This one is not entire correct. I mean, they might have tried to coin that term and changed the definition as fitness trainers, but that's not how it's used. A contraindicated exercises has to have a specific underlying symptomatic or pathological reason for being named as such, most often pathological. It's not just about what exercises you do not do or don't like for whatever reason.

It's not hugely important to the content of this thread, but that's the right use of the word.

Lol I understand the point you are making. Contraindicated exercises would aggravate an underlying condition such as hypertension, cardiac problems or arthritis. Also they may put your joints at an angle that is undesirable to include hyperextension and hyperflexion.

Yes, I am agreeance with you. I think I mentioned that in my original post. However, I was more inclusive as to what you do or do not like to do for whatever reason because there wouldn't have been many responses.

The personal examples I gave of the back squat being contraindicated for me because I have a medical history of lumbar issues, same with my shoulder and the bench press are more true to the definition in that regard.

I agree with you, but it just made the thread more interesting or accessible to everyone to include what people generally just don't like to do for whatever reason.
 
In other words: Oly lifting is extremely similar to a jumping movement, so it trains jumping well.

I've just never heard someone say "weighted jumps are basically the same as oly lifting" as there is a shitload more to oly lifting than that. Also, you are going on about loaded vs. unloaded movement, but in that same post, you talk of a loaded movement (oly lifting) having a benefit for vertical jump.

Now I see that you are saying NBA players don't use plyos? Are you just trying to argue for the sake of arguing?
 
Lol I understand the point you are making. Contraindicated exercises would aggravate an underlying condition such as hypertension, cardiac problems or arthritis. Also they may put your joints at an angle that is undesirable to include hyperextension and hyperflexion.

Yes, I am agreeance with you. I think I mentioned that in my original post. However, I was more inclusive as to what you do or do not like to do for whatever reason because there wouldn't have been many responses.

The personal examples I gave of the back squat being contraindicated for me because I have a medical history of lumbar issues, same with my shoulder and the bench press are more true to the definition in that regard.

I agree with you, but it just made the thread more interesting or accessible to everyone to include what people generally just don't like to do for whatever reason.
I think you might be able change a few things around in regards to the squat and bench and perhaps decrease your injury risk and pain, but that's hard to say without having you in person. Ultimately you know your body best and should do what keeps you pain free!
 
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