Austrian Burqa Ban Passed into Law

[RhinoRush]

There are muslims you could bring here who don't believe those things, thus my point about strict vetting. If there are radical views in a group, you look to see with each individual is doing/ supports that. A burqa in itself isn't subjegation of women, especially if we let that couple in the US where she would be free to also not wear it. The vetting serves to see if these people support basic human rights... you know, like freedom of religion or to be able to wear a silly scarf and not have the government going after you for it.

The problem with this is you're speaking in absolutes for a massive amount of people. If you really think there isn't one good Muslim person that exists, we can leave it at that. I don't think we will come to a reasonable ground. Also, I'm speaking from the ground that the religion of Islam isn't that great of one and I still can acknowledge there are good people who are also Muslim. We could argue how that exists. I'd mostly say somewhat secularism the same sense that's what the west did with religion and governance.



There was intel that existed that could've been handled for those two but it was ignored. That is an argument example of not vetting well enough.



I'm pretty surprised by this too in here. I generally though most of the posters here had a more libertarian view in the sense of social issues/ "don't tread on me" vibe but something simple as a burqa they ban cause it doesn't have to do with them.



These lines can become more and more blurry. The danger is you allow government to make these calls rather than individuals themselves. Keep in mind we aren't changing any domestic abuse laws in the country by not banning the burqa. A woman could leave her husband in the US if she is oppressed and there are plenty of means to help her be supported through that process so this doesn't have to do with oppression.

Should government take stances with circumcision or anti gay conversion therapy? Cause I think they also should stay out of those issues because I hold the same principle there.



Read my other posts. If you begin having government control how people can practice religion, you go down a dangerous path, especially if it's something as simple as clothing.



Again, read my other posts, I almost made the exact same point with your last sentence there. Extreme vetting is the solution, not some religion questionaire for those coming in or a ban on a persons spirtiuality

Fair enough. I didn't see those other posts before.

 

[Hans Gercmiov]

As a libertarian, no. But I despise Islam. Same with abortion. I hate it but I also don't want to infringe on another person's liberty. But I find both abortion and Islam morally reprehensible.

 

[Lead]

Fair enough. I didn't see those other posts before.

I think I'm not really that far off from what people are saying in here (aside from the race stuff). I think an all out Muslim ban would just cause more problems than it would solve. Vetting itself should be strict and it isn't racist to be more cautious about one country over another for a variety of reasons.

 

[senri]

You stopped here? What was your policy again? What between white and a brown is too far? Please enlighten us.

The pathagon resistance.. I sense high disgust temperance in this Sapien...

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

I don't suppoort a burqa ban, as I'm a strong adherent of freedom of expression and religion. However, I think that in narrow context's like a driver's license and other ID, wearing a burqa should be prohibited.

That said, after all the squawking I've heard through the years from feminists about systematic sex discrimination and the patriarchy, this is an obvious concrete symbol of a culture that truly is patriarchal and tries to keep women in their place. I find the burqa repulsive and think that feminists who don't are hypocrites. But it should be legal.

 

[Lead]

As a libertarian, no. But I despise Islam. Same with abortion. I hate it but I also don't want to infringe on another person's liberty. But I find both abortion and Islam morally reprehensible.

That's why I found the poll so astonishing. We aren't asking people whether they like/ dislike burqas. We are asking if there should be a government enforced ban on it. It's more a libertarian- authoritarian argument imo than it is proislam- anti Islam.

 

[Hans Gercmiov]

That's why I found the poll so astonishing. We aren't asking people whether they like/ dislike burqas. We are asking if there should be a government enforced ban on it. It's more a libertarian- authoritarian argument imo than it is proislam- anti Islam.

Right. I fucking hate Islam. But I am a real libertarian.

 

[RhinoRush]

I think I'm not really that far off from what people are saying in here (aside from the race stuff). I think an all out Muslim ban would just cause more problems than it would solve. Vetting itself should be strict and it isn't racist to be more cautious about one country over another for a variety of reasons.

I don't know about the US, but there were loads of Muslims here in Canada pre-9/11 and they really weren't a problem.

It seems that Islam as a whole as become more aggressive in the last decade and a half.

I still maintain that I've never met an Iranian I didn't like. It definitely seems to vary a lot by region from my experience.

 

[The Beevers Revenge]

Disgusting. It's 2017...

Yes, you are right, it is disgusting women still wear the Burqa in 2017.

 

[Lead]

Right. I fucking hate Islam. But I am a real libertarian.

I don't mind the idea of government at this size or larger but it always comes through the lense of if that would cause an overreach on social issues. For example, I could be supportive of a single payer system but I know if that was in place, we'd get more calls for how people live their lives and handle their health and to me, that's not worth it. It's a shame but I know different things like that, it would become too easy and temping for people to try to control others

 

[RhinoRush]

Right. I fucking hate Islam. But I am a real libertarian.

Driving with a burqua on just seems dangerous to me. Imagine parallel parking in one of those things. I think the personal freedom argument runs into problems when you're putting other people at risk unnecessarily.

 

[Lead]

I don't know about the US, but there were loads of Muslims here in Canada pre-9/11 and they really weren't a problem.

It seems that Islam as a whole as become more aggressive in the last decade and a half.

I still maintain that I've never met an Iranian I didn't like. It definitely seems to vary a lot by region from my experience.

I don't know many from the region either but my experience is antedoctal anyways. There is definitely a danger in post 9-11 becoming a religious war both ways. I understood Obamas speeches warning about that but I think it only pissed off those who weren't Muslim or religious in general. My fear is that created a swing back in retaliation which I worry will cause another wave back from muslims. I think Bush and Obama understood this but didn't have any idea how to really handle it. They probably couldn't have done anything on their own. Though I don't think trump is the best answer, I think the wave of being able to talk more about Islamic radicalism is very helpful now and Clinton wasn't going to allow for that at all. This is a complicated issue that deals with society and culture and somewhat needs to be sorted out there and it never would've been able to with the amount of pc culture that was making Sam Harris out to be a bigot for even talking about it

 

[Hans Gercmiov]

Driving with a burqua on just seems dangerous to me. Imagine parallel parking in one of those things. I think the personal freedom argument runs into problems when you're putting other people at risk unnecessarily.

Yeh but they'd corner the market in beekeeping.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

I'm pretty surprised by this too in here. I generally though most of the posters here had a more libertarian view in the sense of social issues/ "don't tread on me" vibe but something simple as a burqa they ban cause it doesn't have to do with them.

I am quite conservative and traditional when it comes to social issues. I have no problem with banning alcohol and other drugs. I am also a big proponent of the society enforcing more appropriate behavior and manners in public. I like modest women. I do not even like it when they wear makeup. I am certainly no libertarian.

This is my kind of woman:

 

[Lead]

I am quite conservative and traditional when it comes to social issues. I have no problem with banning alcohol and other drugs. I am also a big proponent of the society enforcing more appropriate behavior and manners in public. I like modest women. I do not even like it when they wear makeup. I am certainly no libertarian.

See, to some who practice Islam, I think the burqa is a way of practicing modesty with their women and that is only done culturally in the US (no sharia law/ theocracy forcing her to do so). I just don't see how there's enough danger in a burqa for a countries government to step in here

 

[senri]

I don't know many from the region either but my experience is antedoctal anyways. There is definitely a danger in post 9-11 becoming a religious war both ways. I understood Obamas speeches warning about that but I think it only pissed off those who weren't Muslim or religious in general. My fear is that created a swing back in retaliation which I worry will cause another wave back from muslims. I think Bush and Obama understood this but didn't have any idea how to really handle it. They probably couldn't have done anything on their own. Though I don't think trump is the best answer, I think the wave of being able to talk more about Islamic radicalism is very helpful now and Clinton wasn't going to allow for that at all. This is a complicated issue that deals with society and culture and somewhat needs to be sorted out there and it never would've been able to with the amount of pc culture that was making Sam Harris out to be a bigot for even talking about it

Very logical, and i agree with your dendrites coordinated harmony to form such an opinion of the logos.

In all my years alive on this planet, the Sapiens will make the same mistake over and over again. Every cycle upon the fall i just like to see the look of reality displace and vanish from the hopeful as their fabricated paradigm simply collapses as their notion of what is true is now no longer there. Chaos is always lurking right beside you...Your own shadow is a reminder of that. Stay vigilant Mr Lead...

 

[Devout Pessimist]

See, to some who practice Islam, I think the burqa is a way of practicing modesty with their women and that is only done culturally in the US (no sharia law/ theocracy forcing her to do so). I just don't see how there's enough danger in a burqa for a countries government to step in here

The burka goes too far. I have no problem with the hijab. I think more women should wear it.

 

[Lead]

The burka goes too far. I have no problem with the hijab. I think more women should wear it.

Those Indonesians pull them off well

 

[mon]

Again, a flat out ban would be short sighted as well. You shouldn't want government making those calls. I could understand priority maybe or strict vetting which I think the US already has but a ban outright has longer consequences and would be an emotional decision.

Australia-
If I walk around on the street with a balaclava on I would be warned and arrested if I refused to remove it

I must remove my helmet before the petrol browser is activated to fill my car to stop fill and runs.

If I enter my local bank with my face covered the police will be called.

In Australia we are slowly showing some balls and common sense. If I can't walk around with my face covered due to a law why should they.

If in court you can't wear a niqab to give evidence and can be held in contempt of court.

 

[Lead]

Australia-
If I walk around on the street with a balaclava on I would be warned and arrested if I refused to remove it

I must remove my helmet before the petrol browser is activated to fill my car to stop fill and runs.

If I enter my local bank with my face covered the police will be called.

In Australia we are slowly showing some balls and common sense. If I can't walk around with my face covered due to a law why should they.

If in court you can't wear a niqab to give evidence and can be held in contempt of court.

I'm talking about out right bans though. I understand there are times this may conflict in certain situations. I really believe in not infringing on freedom of speech but think there should be rules in place for not yelling fire in a crowded space, etc. There is a decent amount of case law where religious beliefs and the law conflict. I think it has to be taken on a case by case basis at that point