accepting rank from non-black belts

[sb413197]

I actually miss those days, because now we have people being promoted to black belt level too quickly to facilitate sales in an open market. If some guy in Nowhere Kansas opens a school in an area with rich parents and no competition that dude will get promoted to black belt ASAP no matter how he grapples because he is a cash cow. There is no incentive to be a better grappler anymore.

That's because people would rather get promoted by a terrible black belt then a more skilled purple.

Wow, that's actually a really good point, I never thought of that before. So maybe the current way things are done aren't so great after all.

 

[lechien]

The BJJ rules promotion rules are kinda weird. I mean, you're a 4-stripe brownbelt and can't figure out when a guy is ready to get his blue, then you get your blackbelt and you can promote up to brown. Oh well, guess there has to be some sort of standard, and everyone knows BJJ tries hard to fight dropping standards so it's probably not a bad thing

It is about control than fighting dropping standards.
If you have an affiliate school with a blue belt, you are looking at monthly fees. Paid seminars for at least twice a year until that person get to bb. Then he or she gets to bb, and they realise that they still need you to promote their homegrown bb.
You are looking at a cash cow for over a relationship of maybe 10 years at least.

 

[Matsukaze]

It is about control than fighting dropping standards.
If you have an affiliate school with a blue belt, you are looking at monthly fees. Paid seminars for at least twice a year until that person get to bb. Then he or she gets to bb, and they realise that they still need you to promote their homegrown bb.
You are looking at a cash cow for over a relationship of maybe 10 years at least.

I wonder if this was an "American" idea or was it like that in Rio? I think it's crazy how much money is involved in this sport.. Where I train the Instructor has a monthly fee to the association plus he has to have the head man for a seminar once a year plus he has to attend a seminar a year at the HQ.. You all wonder why fee's are so high well there ya go

 

[ziggyholiday]

Why would it be an "American" idea? I suppose Brazilians that moved to America and had the idea, would make it an American idea then?

 

[Auspex]

I don't see why a brown belt couldn't/shouldn't be allowed to promote to purple.

We give a lot of weight to belts in BJJ and brown belts absolutely should be able to say that someone is purple level. If not, what good is that dudes brown belt. We either say brown is a legit rank (it totally is), or we don't.

In the end, though, I guess rank doesn't mean shit unless you're a black belt, so why would someone getting a purple from a brown matter on anyones radar?

I mean, I have never seen a thread yelling at someone for being a fake non black belt.

 

[cjd]

I think most schools run by non-BBs that do promote have some sort agreement with whomever they are under (spoken or unspoken) that they can promote up to a certain level (sometimes including their own rank). At my old school, the instructor was a brown belt. He would give out blues and purples. The handful of brown belt promotions were handled by his instructor when he came to town for his annual visit.

 

[Tirofijo2001]

I started in 2001.

At the time, it was acceptable for a Carlson Gracie student to promote up to the level below their rank.

My coach was a brown belt and he promoted people to purple.

This was common!

They were supposed to "ask" for permission but it was more like

"Valo, Dave who is the new blue belt guy?"

"Oh, hey Carlos! I promoted him. That cool???"

"Yeah that's good! Imma sure he strong guy! When's lunch????"

Simple.

Gracie Barra even stated on their website that lower belts could promote to the rank below if there were no black belts in the area. This was back in 2007.

Now everyone just assumes that it's always been black belts promoting, ignoring the fact that America was a bjj wasteland a decade ago, not to mention all over Europe.

I actually miss those days, because now we have people being promoted to black belt level too quickly to facilitate sales in an open market. If some guy in Nowhere Kansas opens a school in an area with rich parents and no competition that dude will get promoted to black belt ASAP no matter how he grapples because he is a cash cow. There is no incentive to be a better grappler anymore.

That's because people would rather get promoted by a terrible black belt then a more skilled purple.

All of this is true. I started in 2003 (in Rio.) Went back to the US and didn't see a BB for a long time. If you could find a gym (big IF), it was very likely to be run by a purple or even a blue. And those guys' BB instructor would be hours away. So they were only rolling with people better than them every once in a while. Sometimes the gym would pile into a car and drive a half day to roll with the head instructor and get promoted. Sometimes the purple belt would give out the blue. No big deal.

 

[ElPresidente77]

Interesting.

Caique has a very strict promotion policy. Only black belt instructors can promote anyone.

In first 3 years you can only promote to blue , 4 stripes.
3-5: Purple, 4 stripes
6-9: Brown, 4 stripes
after 9th year you can promote to black.

 

[Tirofijo2001]

Interesting.

Caique has a very strict promotion policy. Only black belt instructors can promote anyone.

In first 3 years you can only promote to blue , 4 stripes.
3-5: Purple, 4 stripes
6-9: Brown, 4 stripes
after 9th year you can promote to black.

Am I reading this correctly? A third year BB can't promote someone to purple? And a fifth year BB can't promote someone to brown?

This has to be about control. (As in Caique's control of his affiliates.) It's not as if Caique is going to be rolling with every blue belt in his affiliate system, so he's going to have to go by the word of the affiliate instructor (the one that isn't allowed to tie the purple on.)

I don't understand the appeal of the affiliate system anyway. Gracie Barra and a handful of others have serious name recognition due to their long history or competition success, but some of the other affiliations with less name recognition leave me scratching my head.

Does it really bring in students to be part of the "Cobra BJJ" affiliation (I just googled BJJ affiliations to pick one I'd never heard of.) Even "Caique" doesn't have much weight among new students that don't know BJJ history and personalities. Why would an instructor pay him?

Students - does your school's affiliation matter if the instructor didn't get his rank from someone in that affiliation? I could be a BB under an unheralded instructor and then affiliate with Atos. I'd know less about Galvao than some of the students yet I'm paying him and hoping his school's name brings in paying customers.

Seems weird.

 

[deadlizard]

Only the gym owner can promote you to a new belt. Not black belts.

Think about this for a minute.

 

[richardb]

Grading in judo is regulated from two grades above, starting at 1st dan black belt ie. 1st dan black belt can grade up to 2nd kyu blue belt; 2nd dan black belt can grade to 1st kyu brown belt; committee of 3rd dan black belts committee can grade to 1st dan

I guess a similar principle for BJJ would be: brown can grade to blue, black can grade to purple, 1st degree black (after 3 years) can grade to brown, 2nd degree black (after another 3 years) can grade to black, 3rd degree black (after another 3 years) can grade to 1st degree???

 

[lechien]

Grading in judo is regulated from two grades above, starting at 1st dan black belt ie. 1st dan black belt can grade up to 2nd kyu blue belt; 2nd dan black belt can grade to 1st kyu brown belt; committee of 3rd dan black belts committee can grade to 1st dan

I guess a similar principle for BJJ would be: brown can grade to blue, black can grade to purple, 1st degree black (after 3 years) can grade to brown, 2nd degree black (after another 3 years) can grade to black, 3rd degree black (after another 3 years) can grade to 1st degree???

Yeah. A green belt can grade up to grey belt and so forth.

 

[ElPresidente77]

Am I reading this correctly? A third year BB can't promote someone to purple? And a fifth year BB can't promote someone to brown?

This has to be about control. (As in Caique's control of his affiliates.) It's not as if Caique is going to be rolling with every blue belt in his affiliate system, so he's going to have to go by the word of the affiliate instructor (the one that isn't allowed to tie the purple on.)

I don't understand the appeal of the affiliate system anyway. Gracie Barra and a handful of others have serious name recognition due to their long history or competition success, but some of the other affiliations with less name recognition leave me scratching my head.

Does it really bring in students to be part of the "Cobra BJJ" affiliation (I just googled BJJ affiliations to pick one I'd never heard of.) Even "Caique" doesn't have much weight among new students that don't know BJJ history and personalities. Why would an instructor pay him?

Students - does your school's affiliation matter if the instructor didn't get his rank from someone in that affiliation? I could be a BB under an unheralded instructor and then affiliate with Atos. I'd know less about Galvao than some of the students yet I'm paying him and hoping his school's name brings in paying customers.

Seems weird.

More from Caique's site.

"These belt requirements are not new. It was the way I was promoted, and it is the way I promote my students. By setting these standards, I am working to keep the reputation of the Caique Jiu Jitsu Academy at the highest level and to create better students, fighters and instructors. In addition to all of these requirements, your personal character and good citizenship count. Respect for your instructor, the Academy and your community members are also important qualities for you to have to be promoted to any level."

So, yes it is about control. Control in order to protect and guard his reputation as an instructor and business man. Not a power trip.

The way people talk on this forum about standards for bjj belting, and belt integrity; I would think more people would push for these high standards to be more widespread. Knowing the standards are so high, it would be very difficult to question the validity of any belt you receive from caique or any of his instructors.

Link for anyone interested in the entire policy (scroll to bottom of page). http://cjjusa.com/black-belt/

Also, on some level I understand the affiliate system, in that as a black belt academy owner, who would promote you to the next degree? Especially if you are anti-ibjjf.

 

[lts5025]

Students - does your school's affiliation matter if the instructor didn't get his rank from someone in that affiliation? I could be a BB under an unheralded instructor and then affiliate with Atos. I'd know less about Galvao than some of the students yet I'm paying him and hoping his school's name brings in paying customers.

Seems weird.

I'm in Northern California. There's a Gracie Barra black belt that opened his own gym, but as a Ralph Gracie affiliate. In this area, Ralph's name carries a lot of weight. There are no Gracie Barra schools up here, but Ralph's other academies are just an hour or so away. It makes sense if he's trying to attract students who want access to Ralph, Kurt, etc and they take trips to visit all the time. Staying Barra wouldn't allow that even though Gracie Barra has a bigger reputation because the nearest GB school is like 7 hours away.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Grading in judo is regulated from two grades above, starting at 1st dan black belt ie. 1st dan black belt can grade up to 2nd kyu blue belt; 2nd dan black belt can grade to 1st kyu brown belt; committee of 3rd dan black belts committee can grade to 1st dan

Depends upon the country, and the rank. For instance national grading boards typically can grade from Schichidan (7th) to Judan (10th) without being two grades higher (impossible in the case of Kudan and Judan as there are no 11th degree and higher ranks).

Most countries require a national grading board to promote to yudansha ranks (black belt ranks), though the grading itself might be in front of provincial/state boards; the actual ranks of the people of the board typically isn't important, to the point where they will sometimes promote to higher ranks than anyone on the board. For instance, Yosh Senda was promoted to Kudan (9th) by the Canadian grading board, though the highest rank on the board was hachidan (8th) - and of course there was no one two ranks higher than 9th anywhere in the world. Whether the Kodokan or IJF accept a rank is another question, though they typically don't care until you get to the kohaku ranks (red and white panel belt) and higher. Mainly because in judo black belt doesn't mean expert; 6th degree black belt and above means expert.

 

[NateTx4112]

I don't see why a brown belt couldn't/shouldn't be allowed to promote to purple.

As a 4 stripe brown belt I personally have no issues in my mind with giving a blue belt to a guy. I'd be much more hesitant on a purple belt after having been rolled the F up by some competitive purple belts and then having other purples and think....man these guys move like white belts. This is just my personally. If I had my own academy I would affiliate with my current coach and fly him in twice a year and have him promote the guys I think that deserve it.

Interesting.

Caique has a very strict promotion policy. Only black belt instructors can promote anyone.

In first 3 years you can only promote to blue , 4 stripes.
3-5: Purple, 4 stripes
6-9: Brown, 4 stripes
after 9th year you can promote to black.

More from Caique's site.
So, yes it is about control. Control in order to protect and guard his reputation as an instructor and business man. Not a power trip.

Exactly this is about control and not his reputation. Financial Control. 9 years as a black belt before you can give someone their black belt. So I can get my Black belt, open an academy but according to him 8 1/2 years from now I have a guy I can't give a black belt to without his blessing/seminar/affiliation fee? Fuck that, it's about keeping guys paying association fees for 9 years before they can "give a Caique black belch".

 

[lechien]

As a 4 stripe brown belt I personally have no issues in my mind with giving a blue belt to a guy. I'd be much more hesitant on a purple belt after having been rolled the F up by some competitive purple belts and then having other purples and think....man these guys move like white belts. This is just my personally. If I had my own academy I would affiliate with my current coach and fly him in twice a year and have him promote the guys I think that deserve it.





Exactly this is about control and not his reputation. Financial Control. 9 years as a black belt before you can give someone their black belt. So I can get my Black belt, open an academy but according to him 8 1/2 years from now I have a guy I can't give a black belt to without his blessing/seminar/affiliation fee? Fuck that, it's about keeping guys paying association fees for 9 years before they can "give a Caique black belch".

That is the weird system.
Let say a bb runs his own club, a purple belt arrives from another country. He likes your style of teaching and ambience. But he cannot promote him because he does not have enough degrees on his bb!
You might as well open your 'own' club and promote as you want because you are a bb. You better act like one.

 

[lechien]

Also I just find out that the SIJJF requirement for grading are very similar to IBJJF.
EXCEPT you need to be certified 1 degree bb in order to promote your student to brown belt.
Funny that.

 

[ElPresidente77]

As a 4 stripe brown belt I personally have no issues in my mind with giving a blue belt to a guy. I'd be much more hesitant on a purple belt after having been rolled the F up by some competitive purple belts and then having other purples and think....man these guys move like white belts. This is just my personally. If I had my own academy I would affiliate with my current coach and fly him in twice a year and have him promote the guys I think that deserve it.





Exactly this is about control and not his reputation. Financial Control. 9 years as a black belt before you can give someone their black belt. So I can get my Black belt, open an academy but according to him 8 1/2 years from now I have a guy I can't give a black belt to without his blessing/seminar/affiliation fee? Fuck that, it's about keeping guys paying association fees for 9 years before they can "give a Caique black belch".

Not about financial control. What does it benefit him to withhold belts when the guy down the street sells them on the internet? It is a business decision yes. His business is based on his reputation for quality instruction, instructors and belts.

You talk like a guy can't leave his association and associate with someone else (or no one at all) at the drop of a hat.

 

[kpoz12]

I wonder how Dan hands out ranks in the Catch Jitsu system.