YOUNG Ali vs Young Prime Tyson

How can it be the same version of Ali if he had deteriorated and had to resort to go to the trenches?

Please elaborate on the Cooper Tillis situation
Thanks

I think you’re misunderstanding. Im implying Ali”s intelligence and savvy was always in the bank but never had to rely on it because his body hadn’t deteriorated yet. I’m not saying the Ali that fought Foreman, was physically the same fighter as the one that fought Cleveland Williams.

As for Cooper/Tillis, those were examples of two fighters that gave a very hard time to a peaked Tyson and Ali. You can’t criticize Ali for his vulnerability against Cooper, without mentioning how Tyson looked against Tillis.
 
It'd have to be like 20 year old Tyson vs 24 year old Ali

Idk who'd win but imo those are The ages....guess I'd lean towards Ali just because of style bias
I would lean towards ali because of his mental toughness.
 
Ali would get inside Tyson's head and beat him mentally before beating him physically.
 
I think in all of boxing History the 2 most debated topics ever are Ali vs. Tyson and Lewis vs. Klitschko 2. Two things that never fail to bring out the aggressive arguments in fans haha. My favorite are the people that think their opinion is Iron will. “Of course this guy of the 2 would’ve won. If you don’t agree you don’t know boxing!” <—— My faves haha. . . I’d go with Ali to beat Tyson though. Tyson could dish it out but couldn’t take it. Young Ali was just so fast. And was impossible to knock him out. Was like Marciano. You could put them down but they’ll never stay down. They’ll always get up and keep coming. In my opinion Tyson couldn’t handle that pressure and speed
 
Very hard to say, but my favorite story was a young Mike Tyson sobbing on the phone telling Ali he'd grow up and knock Holmes out for him, and when that fight actually happened, Ali whispered in Mike's ear "get him for me"
 
The reflex is to always pick Ali. That said, Ali (or Clay) was pretty touchable. He got put on his ass a few times by good left hookers and had to resort to cheating to save his ass against Cooper.

People like to compare Tyson to Liston and Patterson, two guys Ali schooled but I think Tyson combined the best aspects of both of those fighters. No one had the speed and explosiveness Tyson had in Ali's era.

That said, you can't ignore the faults Tyson had either. He was a bit of a frontrunner and you could certainly imagine him getting frustrated and tired after a few rounds against Ali.

I'd say its about 60/40 in favor of Ali. Closer than some may think. Ali liked to play and clown and you couldn't make mistakes and just take shots from a guy like Tyson, not with that combo of speed and power.
 
probably Ali.

I have trouble picking a guy whose best shot is to land some crazy shit early especially against an Ali who had a granite chin
 
The reflex is to always pick Ali. That said, Ali (or Clay) was pretty touchable.
Depends from what era.
In 60 ies Ali was, sorry, enough fast to clean out modern CW and HW divisions.
Later….

People like to compare Tyson to Liston and Patterson, two guys Ali schooled
Ali was able to do it due to high speed and agility advantage.
Not because Liston wasn't good boxer. He was most likely 2 nd most dangerous large boxer in universe in 60 ies….
Second guy who KOed Liston, after this bout never was able to compete again.
Such a low price for victory ower Liston. Indeed…..

No one had the speed and explosiveness Tyson had in Ali's era.

Well, if we took considerably slower Ali from 1975, not GOAT from 60 ies decade….
Then yes, I most likely even will pick CW Dorticos and laughted in forums Ruiz Jr. ower this version of Ali.

Tyson from 1987-1989 most likely too was more dangerous than Ali from 1975.
At least he was enough fast and with brilliant speed changed angles and height. Really impressive to watch this Mike;)….
So we can get there not less than someting like Fraizer plus a bit worse opponent with impressive considerably faster legwork that didn't had any large boxer from 70 ies decade. Ali from 70 ies was slower tham Mike from 1987-1989.

Prime Mike had trump card : mobile not less than any modern CW top guy from last 3 decades.
Mike 1987-1989.....
This version of Mike was faster than Ali from 1970 ies....
 
I get why opinions are different.

I actually didn't watched Ali from 60 ies a lot earlier.
Because this style is doable against slower opponent.

I watched Ali from 70 ies and underestimated Ali.
When I watched Ali from 60 ies, I really get why Ali was considered like GOAT.
 
I've always said that Ali had a weakness for smaller, quicker heavyweights but tyson has all the wrong weaknesses, he allowed himself to be clinched, he mainly fought in one gear and didn't kayo many people late, and he was a mental mess. I never understand how people think Tyson could win, never, how could Tyson, who doesn't punch any harder than several of the guys Ali fought, knock out Ali? If Shavers couldn't, even when he hit him with everything that should have done the trick, and Frazier, who really should have been able to kayo Ali in the first fight, only ali's toughness and will got him through that. How would Tyson match performances like that? He didn't have the power of shavers and he didn't have the resilience and grinding work ethic of Frazier? How does he win? Now, if we're talking about the young ali, the guy who could throw a million punches a round and move at the same time, the guy who rarely got hit clean as a champion, the best defensive ever in that era, an era where fighters may not have been physical dynamos but did know a craft that's been lost, how does tyson win by kayo if he can't even land. And Ali was all business in those years, apart from screaming at his opponents and doing the ali shuffle, he wasn't fucking around in the ring, none of that mocking, yapping to the crowd, none of it, he was all business in those years and fought some tough nuts. Later he fucked off in the gym and in the ring, layed on the ropes, took rounds off, and was pretty much shot after the third frazier fight and still managed to hang on and even win the title one more time with basically nothing but his intelligence and intangibles and toughness. How does Tyson, the guy who had 72 inch reach, didn't react well when he couldn't land, had a great chin but also got knocked out by less than overwhelming punchers, how does he win? Ali by decision, maybe 10-5 or even more lopsided. Possible kayo given Tyson was kayoed by mediocre punchers just from sheer punishment and exhaustion.
 
I've always said that Ali had a weakness for smaller, quicker heavyweights but tyson has all the wrong weaknesses, he allowed himself to be clinched, he mainly fought in one gear and didn't kayo many people late, and he was a mental mess. I never understand how people think Tyson could win, never, how could Tyson, who doesn't punch any harder than several of the guys Ali fought, knock out Ali? If Shavers couldn't, even when he hit him with everything that should have done the trick, and Frazier, who really should have been able to kayo Ali in the first fight, only ali's toughness and will got him through that. How would Tyson match performances like that? He didn't have the power of shavers and he didn't have the resilience and grinding work ethic of Frazier? How does he win? Now, if we're talking about the young ali, the guy who could throw a million punches a round and move at the same time, the guy who rarely got hit clean as a champion, the best defensive ever in that era, an era where fighters may not have been physical dynamos but did know a craft that's been lost, how does tyson win by kayo if he can't even land. And Ali was all business in those years, apart from screaming at his opponents and doing the ali shuffle, he wasn't fucking around in the ring, none of that mocking, yapping to the crowd, none of it, he was all business in those years and fought some tough nuts. Later he fucked off in the gym and in the ring, layed on the ropes, took rounds off, and was pretty much shot after the third frazier fight and still managed to hang on and even win the title one more time with basically nothing but his intelligence and intangibles and toughness. How does Tyson, the guy who had 72 inch reach, didn't react well when he couldn't land, had a great chin but also got knocked out by less than overwhelming punchers, how does he win? Ali by decision, maybe 10-5 or even more lopsided. Possible kayo given Tyson was kayoed by mediocre punchers just from sheer punishment and exhaustion.

I don't really think Tyson was about raw power like Foreman, Shavers and Liston. It was good power combined with retarded speed and explosiveness. I think Tyson was a better all around puncher than Cooper who pretty much KO'd prime Clay. He was worlds more explosive than Frazier who gave Ali all sorts of problems.

I agree overall Ali wins more times that Tyson if they fought 10 times but I think certain strategies that Ali employed at times would be a disaster vs Tyson. The rope a dope, for example. Disastrous with that speed.

I get why people get so nostalgic about Ali but he was not really as untouchable as people remember him being.

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Honestly, Ali was a bit of a sucker for a lot of things Tyson did really well.
 
I don't really think Tyson was about raw power like Foreman, Shavers and Liston. It was good power combined with retarded speed and explosiveness. I think Tyson was a better all around puncher than Cooper who pretty much KO'd prime Clay. He was worlds more explosive than Frazier who gave Ali all sorts of problems.

I agree overall Ali wins more times that Tyson if they fought 10 times but I think certain strategies that Ali employed at times would be a disaster vs Tyson. The rope a dope, for example. Disastrous with that speed.

I get why people get so nostalgic about Ali but he was not really as untouchable as people remember him being.

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Honestly, Ali was a bit of a sucker for a lot of things Tyson did really well.
Yes but moreso the other way round
 
I don't really think Tyson was about raw power like Foreman, Shavers and Liston. It was good power combined with retarded speed and explosiveness.
Yes!
Mike from 1987-1989 had more retarded speed and explosiveness
than any boxer from 1971-1977 top HWs…..including Ali from this timeframe….

He was worlds more explosive than Frazier who gave Ali all sorts of problems.
Yup, actually Ali never had such a mobile opponent as prime 1987-1989 Mike …..

t I think certain strategies that Ali employed at times would be a disaster vs Tyson. The rope a dope, for example. Disastrous with that speed.
Rope and dope against prime Mike from 1987-1989? <45>
Yes, I agree that Recipe how to get KOed.

I get why people get so nostalgic about Ali but he was not really as untouchable as people remember him being.
People like to remember the best bouts from 60 ies.... and this Ali was surprisingly fast for HW boxer.
 
Cooper who pretty much KO'd prime Clay..

hey, no literary liberties. I’ve read your Loma, Mayweather et al rants. Stick to the facts. Clay tko5. Cooper was a mess
 
hey, no literary liberties. I’ve read your Loma, Mayweather et al rants. Stick to the facts. Clay tko5. Cooper was a mess
Ali should have been retroactively suspended for cheating in that one. Cooper got robbed.
 
Ali should have been retroactively suspended for cheating in that one. Cooper got robbed.
He was up by four and i think the extra time has been exagerrated. Frazier couldnt kayo him in spite of landing plenty of shots after the knockdown. Ali won the last minute of that round.
 
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