Theory Yet another punching power thread

[pugilistico]

It's a general consensus that power is "gifted, not trained." And I am in the camp that believes this, but there seems to be some school of thought that thinks it can be learned.

This video showed up in my feed.

The guy talks about the kinetic chain and what muscles are recruited through the process of punching. He says punching power can be learned. Fouts boxing (all his shit talking notwithstanding) also says that too.
I am in agreement with a lot of what he says. Especially with how many trainers teach the mechanics wrong.

When I first taught boxing, I was taught to pivot my feet, hips, shoulder, fist, etc. together in one movement. It felt very robotic and unnatural but I didn't know any better so I just followed what my trainer taught me.
With more experience, I realized that throwing a punch in a more "elastic" movement like you'd throw a ball, where your hips move first then your shoulder and finally hand follow, is a much more fluid and natural movement. It'd also allow you to throw faster and harder.

I never quite got it when it came to throwing my straight, but I got much better at throwing my lead hook this way.

One element the video doesn't mention is the weight shift from one foot to the other using the hips. When I threw my lead hook, I felt that it was much more natural to shift my weight from my lead foot to my rear foot. I'd add more power and be primed to follow up with a rear hand, but my trainer told me that was the wrong technique and made me keep my weight on my lead foot, which didn't make sense to me unless I was going to follow up again with the same hand. It's one reason why I felt like I was "stuck" in position a lot of the times.

Another element I wonder about is wrist/forearm strength. Beterbiev does those twirls barbells with one hand along with pushups on his fingertips and wrists. I wonder if this can help with the "structure" of the point of impact when you land the punch. And old school boxers practiced grabbing handfuls of rice for strength. I never did hand/forearm exercises when I was boxing.

My power was "good enough" but nothing to write home about. I only had one stoppage in an amateur fight and wobbled my opponent only once in the pros (but didn't drop him). At the time I just chalked it up to my lack of athleticism, but I wonder how much I would've increased my power knowing what I know now.

Even if these things can grant you powerful punches, I also wonder if integrating these mechanics is also a talent in itself. Maybe some people are naturally better than using these mechanics just like how some people seem to intuitively get technique and skill better than others.

 

[TheMaster]

Dempsey wrote long ago that he had always thought power was something you were born with, but on analyzing realized with hindight it was to a large extent something he learned and could be trained and taught.
The shoulder whirl adds big power thats something I got from Dempsey. Its obvious therefore that the truth is somewhere in the middle - you are born with a natural punch or not but it can also be trained.

Wilder-esque or Carwin type power though is largely something you are given and cant be developed I believe.

 

[Trabaho]

It just means that with the same technique and athletic training one guy is gonna throw harder than the other. Altough there is no same athletic training. No two persons have done the same things troughout their life.
It's like if you're naturally a good bench presser it still is a universe of difference what you do with it training wise, diet, recovery, life style.

 

[pugilistico]

Dempsey wrote long ago that he had always thought power was something you were born with, but on analyzing realized with hindight it was to a large extent something he learned and could be trained and taught.
The shoulder whirl adds big power thats something I got from Dempsey. Its obvious therefore that the truth is somewhere in the middle - you are born with a natural punch or not but it can also be trained.

Wilder-esque or Carwin type power though is largely something you are given and cant be developed I believe.

When I look at certain fighters who are world class but don't seem to have much power, the argument can be made that their technique suffers. They way Haney throws is very different from how Davis throws and I believe Haney could get more power by changing his technique. As with my experience with my own boxing training and seeing how some trainers teach punching, I do believe there's a flaw in the way it's taught in a lot of places. There's a misconception that boxers are more front foot heavy which comes from people teaching boxers to be front heavy, which I think should be dependent what you're trying to do.

While everyone can punch a lot harder, I also don't buy that anyone can get that special kind of power certain fighters have. Maybe you're not born in punching power, but there certainly is a genetic disposition for athleticism and bone structure.

It just means that with the same technique and athletic training one guy is gonna throw harder than the other. Altough there is no same athletic training. No two persons have done the same things troughout their life.
It's like if you're naturally a good bench presser it still is a universe of difference what you do with it training wise, diet, recovery, life style.

I agree. If you get a bunch of guys of the same size and have them train exactly the same way, some of them will punch harder than others.

 

[Kowboy On Sherdog]

There is punching power... which I think you can improve.

And there is having a one hitter quitter... which some have and most don't.

 

[Intermission]

Punching power correlates with how strong your upperbody is (and actually lower body). It's a function of strength. Technique and speed. And they are all interconnected.

People who are fast but not powerful don't maximize their technique.

Some people drive very hard into the target (the strength aspect) with moderate speed but most often it's a combination of speed and strength

 

[Intermission]

Case in point. Most high level wrestlers punch very hard ... And Most wrestlers are also strong as fuck.

Speaking of upperbody. National Geographic had to pick the biggest gym bro they could find

 

[DoctorTaco]

Case in point. Most high level wrestlers punch very hard ...

Anecdotally, but I haven’t found this to be true. I’ve trained D1-D3 college wrestlers, national champs, all Americans, etc. one guy with a wrestling base who fought for a world title in a major org. none of them inherently hit that hard. Once I start to tune their technique up they can put some pop on their shots, but without good form they couldn’t bust a grape.

 

[pugilistico]

Punching power correlates with how strong your upperbody is (and actually lower body). It's a function of strength. Technique and speed. And they are all interconnected.

People who are fast but not powerful don't maximize their technique.

Some people drive very hard into the target (the strength aspect) with moderate speed but most often it's a combination of speed and strength

I think this is as meaningful as saying being good at math is a function of your brain.

If you look at Oly lifters as an example, strength is obviously important, and obviously cleaning is a function of strength, but strength doesn't always translate into power.

The guy with the biggest squat isn't necessarily doing the best in competition because oly lifts are extremely technical as well.

If you're going to work on strength to increase punching power, you'd have to work on the muscles that are involved in the kinetic chain. Your glutes are more important than your pecs for example since you use them to drive into your hips to transfer weight into your punches. I'd wager that hip thrusts and squats would do more for power than say, benching. But dynamic movements under load like medicine ball throws, swinging a sledge hammer, or oly lifts would be even more useful.
Also which part of your upperbody are you talking about? Lats would be more important than your pecs or biceps.

 

[Intermission]

Anecdotally, but I haven’t found this to be true. I’ve trained D1-D3 college wrestlers, national champs, all Americans, etc. one guy with a wrestling base who fought for a world title in a major org. none of them inherently hit that hard. Once I start to tune their technique up they can put some pop on their shots, but without good form they couldn’t bust a grape.

Form is posture, technique is delivery system.
Technique is what makes them hit harder. They might not have built Up strength for snapping motions since wrestling is all pushing

 

[Intermission]

I think this is as meaningful as saying being good at math is a function of your brain.

If you look at Oly lifters as an example, strength is obviously important, and obviously cleaning is a function of strength, but strength doesn't always translate into power.

The guy with the biggest squat isn't necessarily doing the best in competition because oly lifts are extremely technical as well.

If you're going to work on strength to increase punching power, you'd have to work on the muscles that are involved in the kinetic chain. Your glutes are more important than your pecs for example since you use them to drive into your hips to transfer weight into your punches. I'd wager that hip thrusts and squats would do more for power than say, benching. But dynamic movements under load like medicine ball throws, swinging a sledge hammer, or oly lifts would be even more useful.
Also which part of your upperbody are you talking about? Lats would be more important than your pecs or biceps.

Depends in the Combat system .I'd say a good boxing punch is 80% in the shoulders. A karate punch mostly hip and stomach

Wrist strength for stabilizing is also important

 

[DoctorTaco]

a good boxing punch is 80% in the shoulders

Why would you say that?

 

[pugilistico]

Depends in the Combat system .I'd say a good boxing punch is 80% in the shoulders. A karate punch mostly hip and stomach

Wrist strength for stabilizing is also important

If you think a punch in boxing is mostly in the shoulders, you've been taught wrong.

 

[Intermission]

Why would you say that?

The shoulder snap.

You can see here where they do still shots, how far Sonny Listons shoulder travels and rolls over. And he hits about as hard as anyone who ever lived. If you stood still for him... As a fighter he's nowhere near my top 5 but that's a separate discussion

 

[DoctorTaco]

The shoulder snap.

You can see here where they do still shots, how far Sonny Listons shoulder travels and rolls over. And he hits about as hard as anyone who ever lived. If you stood still for him... As a fighter he's nowhere near my top 5 but that's a separate discussion

If the shoulder is traveling, what’s behind it? You can see he’s punching with his posterior chain. The big muscles in his back, turning his hip, etc.

 

[Intermission]

If the shoulder is traveling, what’s behind it? You can see he’s punching with his posterior chain. The big muscles in his back, turning his hip, etc.

If he doesn't snap the shoulder the last moment, then he doesn't excert hall of fame power.

 

[DoctorTaco]

If he doesn't snap the shoulder the last moment, then he doesn't excert hall of fame power.

Ok, that doesn’t mean boxing punches are 80% shoulder.

 

[Intermission]

Ok, that doesn’t mean boxing punches are 80% shoulder.

The separating power from regular joes is 80% shoulder.

I can stand upright to the wall and jerk My shoulder and knock someone out. That doesn't permit me to bridge the gap fighting though, in which case I need to plant My feet and position in accordance to my targets distance to me

 

[DoctorTaco]

The separating power from regular joes is 80% shoulder.

I can stand upright to the wall and jerk My shoulder and knock someone out. That doesn't permit me to bridge the gap fighting though, in which case I need to plant My feet and position in accordance to my targets distance to me

The shoulder muscles are too small to account for knock out power compared to the sum (or individual muscle groups) of the posterior chain. Turning the shoulder over is a technique, not a primary force driver for the punch.

 

[Monte Moku]

IMO you can train someone to have a lot of power in their punches, but it's a certain type of power. Closer to the type of power fighters like Julian Jackson, Gervonta Davis, Canelo, etc. have -- they have to exert a good deal of energy and explode into it. Power that guys like Beterviev or Earnie Shavers have though, that's innate and can't be trained