Wrestling is NOT boring

[brendan raedy]

really? I dont want to disrespect you, because I dont know who you are, but you should give tips to cyborg keenan vinny on how to grapple from the guard with someone whos not willing to.

Sorry is just not possible or it extremely hard, and cyborg stood up many times just to have shaub again stalling, hell cyborg was shooting getting sprawled and shaub then backed up, if you think that wasnt bad, then there no point on keep going in this thread.

I agree, but is your bias wrestler/judo whos talking here. I dont see why the heck you are suppose to give and advantage to a person whos cleary only be looking for to stall later, you are giving a fictitious advantage to one style over the other. You are already giving points for tds. Is it frustrating for someone that wanst to wrestle to have someone infront sitting on his ass neglating his skills? yes, well then the wrestler should get better at pressuring from top position so the bjj guy has to hail his attacks and be force to run, or forcing to stand up, there he can proceed to use his tds skills... seems ridiculous right? well at least will avoid the travesty we had on the weekend.

I wrestled in high school and college, but that's not really necessary to say that someone might consider standing up and taking down someone that is running away from them.

Also, I once had the same BJJ coach as Keenan, who I imagine at one time said the same thing I did in this thread - If your opponent can stall you out, that's because you aren't good enough at scoring from that position.

I'm not trying to say stalling is not an issue. It is. But as I've said before, tactics play a role and athletes have to accept resonsibility for their training program and decisions in matches.

 

[brendan raedy]

yes, Arona did the same, the negative point for tds wasnt given I believe untill after 2005. And there have always been postive points for tds.

Sorry, I meant positive points for half the match.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I wrestled in high school and college, but that's not really necessary to say that someone might consider standing up and taking down someone that is running away from them.

Also, I once had the same BJJ coach as Keenan, who I imagine at one time said the same thing I did in this thread - If your opponent can stall you out, that's because you aren't good enough at scoring from that positon.

I'm not trying to say stalling is not an issue. It is. But as I've said before, tactics play a role and athletes have to accept resonsibility for their training program and decisions in matches.

well, then lloyd was wrong (or andre) giving such a broad term as a general rule is moronic, but most likely thought in a bjj set of rules, where people actually grapple, even if they are stalling), how about I give you 10 negative for a guard pull or 20 for a td, and a no stalling rule standing up...yeah you are not good enough my ass, you are not going to grapple on the ground, like ever...

I agree that tactis are part of the game, but they are done based on the rules set, and is the rule set what is fucked up.

 

[brendan raedy]

well, then lloyd was wrong (giving such a broad term as a general rule is moronic, how about I give you 10 negative for a guard pull or 20 for a td, and a no stalling rule standing up...yeah you are not good enough my ass, you are not going to grapple on the ground, like ever)

It's an absolutist type statement, but still helpful to an athlete. You can either complain about stalling or get better.

Don't you think people tried to stall against John Smith or Marcelo Garcia?

 

[BJJ_Rage]

It's an absolutist type statement, but still helpful to an athlete. You can either complain about stalling or get better.

Don't you think people tried to stall against John Smith or Marcelo Garcia?

they have, but marcelo hasnt competed under this rule set either. Remember, is THIS rule set the problem, negative points for guard pulling in the no points part of the match...

 

[the heed]

they have, but marcelo hasnt competed under this rule set either. Remember, is THIS rule set the problem, negative points for guard pulling in the no points part of the match...

this man has a point.. If the no pulling guard was part of the last 10 mins when points count, things would be a lot different.

 

[Spazzmaster]

really? I dont want to disrespect you, because I dont know who you are, but you should give tips to cyborg keenan vinny on how to grapple from the guard with someone whos not willing to.

Brendan Raedy is one of David "The People's Knee" Jacobs' black belts.

Brendan is a former Div 1 NCAA wrestler and a multiple Worlds medalist. He took gold at purple belt.

He has also competed in ADCC trials. He was a North American finalist in 2013 but lost to Big Red.

Not trying to embarrass anyone, just pointing out that he is not some keyboard warrior.

 

[Spazzmaster]

well, then lloyd was wrong (or andre)

Lloyd

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Brendan Raedy is one of David "The People's Knee" Jacobs' black belts.

Brendan is a former Div 1 NCAA wrestler and a multiple Worlds medalist. He took gold at purple belt.

He has also competed in ADCC trials. He was a North American finalist in 2013 but lost to Big Red.

Not trying to embarrass anyone, just pointing out that he is not some keyboard warrior.

Thats why I said I dont want to disrespect you, (even if I didnt know who he was, just the fact that he said he wrestle/judo/bjj already gave me a clue is a good grappler) but him being a far better grappler that I would ever dream to be doesnt make his point right. He has a different view and I dont think his view applies for the better of a subgrappling sport.

 

[brendan raedy]

Brendan Raedy is one of David "The People's Knee" Jacobs' black belts.

Brendan is a former Div 1 NCAA wrestler and a multiple Worlds medalist. He took gold at purple belt.

He has also competed in ADCC trials. He was a North American finalist in 2013 but lost to Big Red.

Not trying to embarrass anyone, just pointing out that he is not some keyboard warrior.

Thanks dude. And if I had been smart enough to stall to win on my negative advantage rather than diving back in his guard I might have been able to hold out for the win! :icon_cry2

 

[brendan raedy]

Thats why I said I dont want to disrespect you, (even if I didnt know who he was, just the fact that he said he wrestle/judo/bjj already gave me a clue is a good grappler) but him being a far better grappler that I would ever dream to be doesnt make his point right. He has a different view and I dont think his view applies for the better of a subgrappling sport.

Bridging a statement with "but" often negates the first part. No offense BUT, no disrespect BUT, I'm not a racist BUT...

Perhaps it's not your intent but your tone and language (cursing) come off as rather hostile and yes, disrespectful.

I don't and most black belts don't expect servility or automatic deference in the exchange of ideas, but I might suggest perhaps taking a more inquisitive and less vulgar tone when engaging anyone, especially those with more experience than you. When in doubt, err on the side of respect.

 

[dmwalking]

Don't have time to read it all, but if OP is referring to ADCC, the issue is that mediocre wrestling skills (namely TD's) result in boring finals due to the negative point rule. Wrestling is fun as hell to watch when you have guys who know how to wrestle.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Bridging a statement with "but" often negates the first part. No offense BUT, no disrespect BUT, I'm not a racist BUT...

Perhaps it's not your intent but your tone and language (cursing) come off as rather hostile and yes, disrespectful.

I don't and most black belts don't expect servility or automatic deference in the exchange of ideas, but I might suggest perhaps taking a more inquisitive and less vulgar tone when engaging anyone, especially those with more experience than you. When in doubt, err on the side of respect.

Im sorry about the rudeness of my expressions, english isnt my first lenguage so many times I might sound different than what my sentiments are.

I still disagree a lot with your views, and theres nothing wrong with people having different opinions, you have an obvious look at the sport thats bias based on your life experience, I have mine which is bias also.

The fact that you have way more experience than me doesnt mean you are right on this one, you could tie me up like a pretzel and still be wrong about some general concept in grappling, may be im not right either, but my thoughts on this topic are basically a reflection of this last ADCC.

by the way, you shouldve taken advantage of the negative point, and you wouldve been in sao paolo this last weekend.

 

[brendan raedy]

Im sorry about the rudeness of my expressions, english isnt my first lenguage so many times I might sound different than what my sentiments are.

I still disagree a lot with your views, and theres nothing wrong with people having different opinions, you have an obvious look at the sport thats bias based on your life experience, I have mine which is bias also.

The fact that you have way more experience than me doesnt mean you are right on this one, you could tie me up like a pretzel and still be wrong about some general concept in grappling, may be im not right either, but my thoughts on this topic are basically a reflection of this last ADCC.

by the way, you shouldve taken advantage of the negative point, and you wouldve been in sao paolo this last weekend.

LOL. All good. And I would have been in Beijing - the trials in question were in 2012 for the 2013 event. I might have been in Sao Paolo had they not scheduled the first trials on my wife's birthday and the next on like 3 weeks notice (I work a full-time job so I need time for a training camp and to make the necessary arrangements.)

 

[nefti]

even if BJJ guys trained wrestling, how good can they really get? Would it even matter against a guy like Ruslam/or others who have wrestled all their lives? Also, wrestling has anti stalling/defensive rules that force the competitors to engage, ADCC does not (while standing).

 

[rmongler]

Losing a point for pulling guard is like, the bare minimum. And if you score points for things like sweeping *to get on top*, or clean takedowns *to get on top*, its only logical for letting the other guy *get on top* to count against you. The argument that something like that represents 'bias' is ludicrous to me. Certainly, *something* is wildly out of alignment here; if bjj_rage is right that 'any mediocre wrestler would mop the floor' under such a ruleset, what that tells me is A; the wrestling game is apparently a disproportionately important aspect of the grappling game, and B; most top competitors apparently suck eggs at this disproportionately important aspect of the grappling game.

 

[yetanother]

The rules need to be changed ASAP.
We should have a ultra strict standing stalling call as in proper wrestling and/or remove the -1 penalty for pulling guard
Wrestling someone who doesn't engage is boring and stupid.

 

[brendan raedy]

Losing a point for pulling guard is like, the bare minimum. And if you score points for things like sweeping *to get on top*, or clean takedowns *to get on top*, its only logical for letting the other guy *get on top* to count against you. The argument that something like that represents 'bias' is ludicrous to me. Certainly, *something* is wildly out of alignment here; if bjj_rage is right that 'any mediocre wrestler would mop the floor' under such a ruleset, what that tells me is A; the wrestling game is apparently a disproportionately important aspect of the grappling game, and B; most top competitors apparently suck eggs at this disproportionately important aspect of the grappling game.

That's actually a really good point and one I had never thought of before. If you aren't going to give points for takedowns, why give points for sweeps?

Do we consider the guard a neutral position or a defensive position? If it's neutral, so is on the feet. If it's defensive, you should be obligated to sweep in the way that IBJJF does not give points for reversals from bottom side or mount.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Losing a point for pulling guard is like, the bare minimum. And if you score points for things like sweeping *to get on top*, or clean takedowns *to get on top*, its only logical for letting the other guy *get on top* to count against you. The argument that something like that represents 'bias' is ludicrous to me. Certainly, *something* is wildly out of alignment here; if bjj_rage is right that 'any mediocre wrestler would mop the floor' under such a ruleset, what that tells me is A; the wrestling game is apparently a disproportionately important aspect of the grappling game, and B; most top competitors apparently suck eggs at this disproportionately important aspect of the grappling game.

or C) if you want to see stand up snoozfest, you could watch wrestling or judo.

Submission grappling is about the submission, not whos the best at wrestling, wrestling is a mere way to take you to the ground so you can, you know, achieve the goal, which is to submit someone, but leaving this obvious alone...

It is logical to give you points for something you have done (IE get the fight to the ground) it is not logical to give you points for something you have not do, unless you want to incentivate part of the game, which I understand is the wrestling part, thus giving a penalty when there are points in game... but giving penalties eventhough you cannot score any points, thats utterly illogical and ridiculous dont you think?, which again is what I am ranting about. You cannot get points, but you can get penalized for pulling guard, however, you cannot get penalized for stalling that being on your feet or going usain bolt as soon as the person on the ground comes to you.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

That's actually a really good point and one I had never thought of before. If you aren't going to give points for takedowns, why give points for sweeps?

Do we consider the guard a neutral position or a defensive position? If it's neutral, so is on the feet. If it's defensive, you should be obligated to sweep in the way that IBJJF does not give points for reversals from bottom side or mount.

bro why do you insist with not giving points for tds? tds always have gotten points.