Wrestling is NOT boring

[brendan raedy]

Two guys refusing to take a shot or go for a throw, in other words refuse to wrestle, is boring. Here is just a glimpse of how entertaining wrestling can be:

[YT]ptaNak1B3_Q[/YT]

Yes, submission grappling is about the SUBMISSION (just like wrestling is about the PIN), but unless you are a fan of the double guard pull or think matches should start on the mat, the rules and the manner in which they are enforced have to find a way to incentivize learning how to take your opponent from a standing position to the mat.

In wrestling, you let a guy escape for 1 point rather than give up a reversal for 2 points and get on with the match. If you want to pull guard, take the negative advantage (under ADCC rules) and show how great your guard is.

3 unanswered shots is stalling. Warn them, ding them with a negative advantage, then -2 points, then a DQ.

If neither guy is shooting, warn, neg adv, -2 points to them both, and ultimately DQ them both if neither will pull, throw, or shoot.

There have been boring matches and boring events under every ruleset we have come up with. Some do better than others at minimizing the boring matches, but athletes and coaches will ALWAYS find a way to manipulate the rules.

Stalling can at times be subjective, but compared to some of the alternatives I have seen from wrestling (clinch after a scoreless period, putting one person on bottom of par terre, ball grab) I think strictly enforcing stalling calls is the best bet. That, and shortening the matches.

tl;dr wrestling is getting a bad rap due to non-wrestlers refusing to wrestle

 

[Uchi Mata]

Do grappler think wrestling is boring? That's stupid. Greco can get a little slow, but freestyle is rarely as boring as BJJ.

 

[MikeOmo]

Non-wrestlers refusing to wrestle while disguising that fact with mediocre take down attempts really slowed down lots of the matches this year at ADCC.

 

[brendan raedy]

Do grappler think wrestling is boring? That's stupid. Greco can get a little slow, but freestyle is rarely as boring as BJJ.

I'm seeing lots of people, mainly sub only enthusiasts, say "wrestling sucks, nobody wants to see wrestling" and I think that is unfair and bad for the future development of BJJ and submission grappling.

Look, I've competed in judo, folk/free/greco wrestling, IBJJF, sub only, ADCC rules, and all have had their share of both boring and exciting matches.

Is pulling closed guard and breaking posture but not going for any real subs or sweeps any different than hand fighting with no shots or throw attempts?

Even no time limit, sub only you will have people go out there with no goal but to see how long they can survive.

Obviously, the ADCC rules need some fine tuning, but you can't completely let the athletes or the refs off the hook, nor can you ignore the great deal of ambiguity of ADCC rules. Is a comprehensive copy of them publicly available? Any rules clinics online?

 

[brendan raedy]

Non-wrestlers refusing to wrestle while disguising that fact with mediocre take down attempts really slowed down lots of the matches this year at ADCC.

I saw way more half hearted jumping guillotine attempts and leg slaps than even mediocre shots or throw attempts.

To be fair, sweat, lack of singlet or rash guard, no shoes, long match time/fatigue makes wrestling more difficult, but the number of serious attempts was often very low.

Judo penalizes false attacks, and I'm wondering if BJJ might consider the same.

 

[Human Bass]

I like watching free and folk, greco not so much.

 

[Calibur]

Do grappler think wrestling is boring? That's stupid. Greco can get a little slow, but freestyle is rarely as boring as BJJ.

I think this thread is a response to the feedback this past ADCC is getting.

When you have two people who don't really train for takedowns forced into a situation where they have to succeed at their takedown or lose, you get really ugly grappling.

The general feedback from the bjj community seems to be "don't make grapplers have to wrestle because than ADCC is no fun" as opposed to "stop allowing grapplers to pretend to be engaged on their feet when they can simply learn to wrestle properly while the ref makes appropriate stalling calls. "

 

[brendan raedy]

I think this thread is a response to the feedback this past ADCC is getting.

When you have two people who don't really train for takedowns forced into a situation where they have to succeed at their takedown or lose, you get really ugly grappling.

The general feedback from the bjj community seems to be "don't make grapplers have to wrestle because than ADCC is no fun" as opposed to "stop allowing grapplers to pretend to be engaged on their feet when they can simply learn to wrestle properly while the ref makes appropriate stalling calls. "

Thanks, yes, this is in response to the ADCC backlash.

The thing I have trouble understanding is that several athletes were definitely working their wrestling. Not sure how much, but Jacob Harman and Church Boyz run a GREAT program so any time spent with them is time well spent. That said, if you've never wrestled before doing a camp focusing on it probably isn't going to put you in a spot to out wrestle a guy like Rustam.

All that said, I don't totally understand not taking the negative advantage and aggressively trying to submit or sweep for the remaining 9-9.5 minutes when you can't take the other guy down or don't want to risk his counter.

The funny thing is, a similar thing happens when 2 great wrestlers fight in MMA - you often get a very poor kickboxing match because neither can take the other down.

 

[selfcritical]

Do grappler think wrestling is boring? That's stupid. Greco can get a little slow, but freestyle is rarely as boring as BJJ.

Greco is like watching paint dry at the elite level unless one of the contestants rhymes with Sarah Pin

 

[brendan raedy]

Greco is like watching paint dry at the elite level unless one of the contestants rhymes with Sarah Pin

Greco can have great matches, but forced to choose I'd rather have more freestyle weights.

That said, there are lots of places in the world where Greco is the preferred style.

 

[Kenny from MD]

Part of what I love about jiu jitsu is that in incorporates various aspects of combat, which are all effective in-context. The guard has a place in a self-defense scenario, as does taking someone down and mounting them. Fighters are able to utilize these aspects of combat as they deem appropriate to battle with each other. I hate rules that fuck with that idea, and dictate how and where people should fight. I think in a grappling contest, all forms of grappling are valid, whether it stem from a takedown, or a double guard pull. The negative point in the first half is a pointless rule.

It'd be so corny, but why don't guys just get taken down if they aren't proficient in wrestling and want to fight from the guard during the no points period?

Also: I heard a lot of people shitting on the ADCC athletes for being poor wrestlers, but consider this: Romulo, Yuri, Keenan, etc have made significant and obvious improvements to their wrestling, even if they aren't GREAT wrestlers yet. That's worth something, and shitting on them is highly unnecessary considering the arduous process of becoming proficient, especially at this stage in life. At least they are trying.

 

[brendan raedy]

Part of what I love about jiu jitsu is that in incorporates various aspects of combat, which are all effective in-context. The guard has a place in a self-defense scenario, as does taking someone down and mounting them. Fighters are able to utilize these aspects of combat as they deem appropriate to battle with each other. I hate rules that fuck with that idea, and dictate how and where people should fight. I think in a grappling contest, all forms of grappling are valid, whether it stem from a takedown, or a double guard pull. The negative point in the first half is a pointless rule.

It'd be so corny, but why don't guys just get taken down if they aren't proficient in wrestling and want to fight from the guard during the no points period?

Also: I heard a lot of people shitting on the ADCC athletes for being poor wrestlers, but consider this: Romulo, Yuri, Keenan, etc have made significant and obvious improvements to their wrestling, even if they aren't GREAT wrestlers yet. That's worth something, and shitting on them is highly unnecessary considering the arduous process of becoming proficient, especially at this stage in life. At least they are trying.

I think this is a great point. While there will be growing pains, this is in a way proof that the rules are making athletes adapt and round out their skills. 2 years from now I have to imagine we will see even greater strides in wrestling ability.

 

[ShinkanPo]

Thanks for sharing this I was entertained by the Chain wrestling moves.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think this thread is a response to the feedback this past ADCC is getting.

When you have two people who don't really train for takedowns forced into a situation where they have to succeed at their takedown or lose, you get really ugly grappling.

The general feedback from the bjj community seems to be "don't make grapplers have to wrestle because than ADCC is no fun" as opposed to "stop allowing grapplers to pretend to be engaged on their feet when they can simply learn to wrestle properly while the ref makes appropriate stalling calls. "

I'd actually rather see the latter. ADCC is big enough that it alone has encouraged top grapplers (Keenan being a great example) to move away from pure guard play and broaden their skill set, and I think for martial art, aesthetic, and practical reasons encouraging good TDs among sub grapplers/BJJ guys is a good thing.

I do think that flying submission attacks that fail should not be counted as guard pulls.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Greco is like watching paint dry at the elite level unless one of the contestants rhymes with Sarah Pin

Much like Judo, Greco has amazing highlight reel moves and incredibly boring complete matches. I'll watch 100% of the Greco HLs I come across but hardly any of the matches. It is interesting to me that in parts of the world it's more popular than freestyle.

 

[brendan raedy]

I'd actually rather see the latter. ADCC is big enough that it alone has encouraged top grapplers (Keenan being a great example) to move away from pure guard play and broaden their skill set, and I think for martial art, aesthetic, and practical reasons encouraging good TDs among sub grapplers/BJJ guys is a good thing.

I do think that flying submission attacks that fail should not be counted as guard pulls.

I've had explained to me at a rules meeting that if you shoot a leg attack, get caught under a sprawl for 3 seconds, THEN pull guard, it's not a negative advantage, but I can't find that anywhere in the rules ADCC posts online:

http://adcombat.com/adcc-rules-regulations

Still crazy to me that taking a guy from standing down to the mat is not a "take down" if he turtles.

Detail on these rules is so sparse and as a result enforcement seems erratic.

 

[brendan raedy]

Much like Judo, Greco has amazing highlight reel moves and incredibly boring complete matches. I'll watch 100% of the Greco HLs I come across but hardly any of the matches. It is interesting to me that in parts of the world it's more popular than freestyle.

Seems like in a lot of the Former Soviet Union the Slavs wrestle Greco and the Caucasians wrestle Free. Wonder why that is?

 

[cjd]

Seems like in a lot of the Former Soviet Union the Slavs wrestle Greco and the Caucasians wrestle Free. Wonder why that is?

It seems to me, for the most part, the Caucasians are still the dominant force in Greco. Much more balanced, though.

I think there is more participation in/ support for Greco than freestyle in Central/Western Europe. Probably because of tradition and (from a national governing body perspective) ease of producing medalists?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Seems like in a lot of the Former Soviet Union the Slavs wrestle Greco and the Caucasians wrestle Free. Wonder why that is?

Similarity to indigenous styles? I have no idea, but I've seen that in Judo where Georgians and Mongolians really take to it because it's pretty similar in many ways to native styles of jacket wrestling they grew up on.

Though Caucasians are just beasts. I once saw a Caucasian baby arm bar the delivery room doctor when he slapped him. True story.

 

[brendan raedy]

Look at the difference in hometown for the Russian Greco vs Free team. Some of those listed for Krasnoyarsk are guys like Saitiev back in the day who moved their from Dagestan to train:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_National_Freestyle_Wrestling_Championships

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_National_Greco-Roman_Wrestling_Championships