Wrestling 14-3 in Past Two Events

Belatucadros said:
Was hoping for somewhere to post this....

Comments Thread For: Randy Couture-James Toney Results From Boston - Boxing Forum

Looks like a choke "doesn't settle anything" lol. Because anyone can choke somebody.

Ugh. Boxing diehards.

MMA fans have debates about wrestling, judo, whatever - but we all understand that there's more to fighting than just jabbing.
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LOL they are so stupid. Sure boxing wins in a boxing ring but MMA wins out everywhere else on earth, MMA, street, wrestling ring, BJJ mat....so on and so forth.
 
knoxpk said:
LOL they are so stupid. Sure boxing wins in a boxing ring but MMA wins out everywhere else on earth, MMA, street, wrestling ring, BJJ mat....so on and so forth.
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For sure. Nobody cares who will win in a boxing ring when we have a less-restrictive and more realistic rule set in MMA. The whole thing was boxers (and a lot of fans) saying that MMA fighters couldn't fight, and that they would knock them out. Of course we have known since the early 90's that a pure striker will lose to someone who has at least passable grappling skills, but that didn't matter.

I laughed when people I know told me that all Toney needed was one punch to win and that he would KO Randy. Sure, he just needed one punch. But Randy just needed one takedown attempt. And you can't impose your boxing on someone long enough to land that one punch if you can't keep it on your feet. Toney has been training for 6 months in MMA. 6 months of wrestling is jack compared to Randy's wrestling experience. Likewise, 6 months of bjj will still have you at white belt level. The second that Randy got a hold of him the fight was over, so this essentially surprised no one who has ever grappled.
 
knoxpk said:
I agree with you. However it should work both ways...This was just after the Sonnen v Silva fight. As you recall it was even more blatant after the Fedor v Werdum fight.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/jiu-jitsu-reigns-again-1306283/
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The only thing that fight proved is that Fedor needs to stop opening himself for triangles and assuming that he can escape. And that Werdum is an awesome grappler with a dangerous guard. I can't say whether Fedor's sambo background caused him to neglect triangles because I don't train it, and we know the grappling base of each fighter, but it's stupid to say that that fight was bjj over sambo, because Fedor beat Nogueira twice rather handily.

Still, I wish Fedor had gone and competed in ADCC in '09, would have liked to see what happened.

The Sonnen-Silva fight, again, didn't prove anything aside from that Sonnen can't avoid submissions, and that Silva has a ton of heart to win with a rib injury. I've injured my ribs and it kills your bottom game totally. We already knew that when wrestlers come to MMA they need to learn submission defense at the least. I don't think that fight proved anything beyond what those two fighters were able to do.
 
SuperSuperRambo said:
The only thing that fight proved is that Fedor needs to stop opening himself for triangles and assuming that he can escape. And that Werdum is an awesome grappler with a dangerous guard. I can't say whether Fedor's sambo background caused him to neglect triangles because I don't train it, and we know the grappling base of each fighter, but it's stupid to say that that fight was bjj over sambo, because Fedor beat Nogueira twice rather handily.

Still, I wish Fedor had gone and competed in ADCC in '09, would have liked to see what happened.

The Sonnen-Silva fight, again, didn't prove anything aside from that Sonnen can't avoid submissions, and that Silva has a ton of heart to win with a rib injury. I've injured my ribs and it kills your bottom game totally. We already knew that when wrestlers come to MMA they need to learn submission defense at the least. I don't think that fight proved anything beyond what those two fighters were able to do.
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A little OT But I was watching some Bellator fights last night and some Russian guy was fighting and while he won a split decision he was billed as a grappling expert. He looked to me to do everything "ok" but nothing really well. In other words, he struggled everywhere..take downs, submissions etc.. dont recall the names so maybe his opponent had something to do with it but I was hardly impressed. I even think I heard the commentator say he was a Sambo WC a few years ago.

Anyway, I am not sure if Sambo in Russia even does chokes but this "fighter" last night was trying them like crazy but never was really close.
 
knoxpk said:
A little OT But I was watching some Bellator fights last night and some Russian guy was fighting and while he won a split decision he was billed as a grappling expert. He looked to me to do everything "ok" but nothing really well. In other words, he struggled everywhere..take downs, submissions etc.. dont recall the names so maybe his opponent had something to do with it but I was hardly impressed. I even think I heard the commentator say he was a Sambo WC a few years ago.

Anyway, I am not sure if Sambo in Russia even does chokes but this "fighter" last night was trying them like crazy but never was really close.
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From what I've seen, it's a mixed bag when it comes to the Russians. In pure grappling sports, they are great. Russians are high level competitors in both wrestling and judo, and of course they have their own art in Sambo. But for whatever reason, either those guys don't compete in MMA, or it just hasn't translated to any large degree. There's a reason Jordan Breen constantly uses the term "M-1 level grappling" when the grappling level in a fight is generally low.
 
SuperSuperRambo said:
From what I've seen, it's a mixed bag when it comes to the Russians. In pure grappling sports, they are great. Russians are high level competitors in both wrestling and judo, and of course they have their own art in Sambo. But for whatever reason, either those guys don't compete in MMA, or it just hasn't translated to any large degree. There's a reason Jordan Breen constantly uses the term "M-1 level grappling" when the grappling level in a fight is generally low.
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You are right it does not make sense. Great wrestlers, Great Judoka, Great Sambists and yes we all know Fedor but in MMA something is missing aside from a few high level guys.
 
just one thing on toney, people say 1 punch and couture would be done. I highly doubt that.

while mma guys may not have great boxing, I would say that randy has been punched very hard.

toney gets in the ring and has bigger gloves but also has about 12 rounds or whatever to knock someone out.
 
Mat Nemesis said:
just one thing on toney, people say 1 punch and couture would be done. I highly doubt that.

while mma guys may not have great boxing, I would say that randy has been punched very hard.

toney gets in the ring and has bigger gloves but also has about 12 rounds or whatever to knock someone out.
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Randy has a glass chin, if he got hit he would have been out
 
knoxpk said:
LOL they are so stupid. Sure boxing wins in a boxing ring but MMA wins out everywhere else on earth, MMA, street, wrestling ring, BJJ mat....so on and so forth.
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Yep.

Read that thread. All saying submissions don't count because it's not a KO, blah blah blah.

and all the "MMGay" references. Boxers: very mature.
 
SuperSuperRambo said:
From what I've seen, it's a mixed bag when it comes to the Russians. In pure grappling sports, they are great. Russians are high level competitors in both wrestling and judo, and of course they have their own art in Sambo. But for whatever reason, either those guys don't compete in MMA, or it just hasn't translated to any large degree. There's a reason Jordan Breen constantly uses the term "M-1 level grappling" when the grappling level in a fight is generally low.
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I'd love to see Russian Legion fighters in the UFC or Strikeforce but that doesnt mean there arent good Sambo guys out there.

'M-1 level grappling'? OK.

Sambo guy tapping BJJ blackbelt via 'Werdumesque' triangle/armbar. He was actually meant to be on the undercard for Strikeforce but had visa issues.

YouTube - Magomed Shikhshabekov vs. Gerson Dos Santos (M-1 Challenge)
 
I can't way one is better than the other but Wrestlers have been bred for conditioning and strength for a very long time. It isn't focused on as much in BJJ. Frankie's boxing, quickness, and conditioning won that fight.
 
Jaxx said:
I'd love to see Russian Legion fighters in the UFC or Strikeforce but that doesnt mean there arent good Sambo guys out there.

'M-1 level grappling'? OK.

Sambo guy tapping BJJ blackbelt via 'Werdumesque' triangle/armbar. He was actually meant to be on the undercard for Strikeforce but had visa issues.

YouTube - Magomed Shikhshabekov vs. Gerson Dos Santos (M-1 Challenge)
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You picked one of the best undiscovered prospects in the world tapping out a 6-10 fighter who has 7 submission losses. Shikhshabekov is an exception to the rule. The level of grappling in M-1 events is generally rather poor.
 
SuperSuperRambo said:
You picked one of the best undiscovered prospects in the world tapping out a 6-10 fighter who has 7 submission losses. Shikhshabekov is an exception to the rule. The level of grappling in M-1 events is generally rather poor.
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The example was two fold.

1) Sambo guys do know chokes. Wonder how many other prospects exists in the former USSR?

2) Another BJJ black belt was tapped out that night via heel hook. Im not turning this into Sambo vs BJJ but using the 'blackbelt' high level of grappling. I've not seen any other M-1 shows so you may be right.
 
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