Wrestling 14-3 in Past Two Events

[fourfif**]

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/wrestling-reigns-supreme-14-3-past-two-events-1336545/

One very solid BJJ player in Florian and one World Champion BJJ player in Penn just got beaten and essentially out grappled by a couple of wrestlers. Not quite sure what to make of it, just reposting a thread I found elsewhere that I thought would be good to see played out in f12.


this was an interesting post so I'll ttt it.

This may end up as a long post.

Rickson Gracie always talked about how Jiu Jitsu is a smashing art where you always aspire to be on top, you go to the guard if there's something wrong (i.e. you just got knocked down/you don't know what's going on) or if you are unable to get off your back. Otherwise you should always be on top. So all these wrestlers, I don't see it as wrestlers beating JJ fighters, but rather these wrestlers showing better JJ than their opponents.

I think in MMA the wrestling/jiu jitsu separation is invalid, grappling is grappling. People ususally substitute "better wrestling" for "better takedowns". You ask anyone, and instinctively they will say that Gray's JJ is not as good as Florians, but nonetheless he remained ON TOP and out of danger while delivering punishment and controlling Florian. To me that just means that Gray, partially thanks to his base as a folkstyle wrestler, has better Jiu Jitsu than Florian, not wrestling>JJ. He stays on top, he controls, he wins. Gray's grappling is more effective than Florian's.

edit: I love wrestling, no doubt, but train in bjj and judo and respect all three arts equally. it's just a discussion about grappling.

 

[Galahad]

As someone from a wrestling/judo background who has now added bjj...

I don't honestly agree with that assessment. If these guys had better jiu-jitsu they could go to bjj/sub-wrestling comps and win.

Having said that I think these guys do show better MMA grappling - with MMA grappling entailing - gloves, not only no gi but no rashguard, stand-ups, strikes on the ground, vaseline getting on them, 5 minute rounds, etc.

Imho.

 

[Fedorzilla]

I would agree with the Rickson quote. Calling it "wrestling" beating "jiu jitsu" is a bit misleading. The truth is that wrestling is a part of jiu jitsu, but it is often neglected. Penn perhaps would never be a great wrestler, but his TDD was enough in his own mind because he (at least historically) thought himself the best boxer around such that he'd never NEED to get a takedown. If it stayed standing, he'd win. If he got a knockdown, he'd take top position.

It would perhaps be better to talk about someone having the better "bottom game." Most BJJ guys in MMA have a pretty good top game, if not great. However, guys with great wrestling have a much more efficient means of getting top position, and are therefore more complete "grapplers."

Ultimately, if you have a great top game but can't get there, what good is it? This is like being the greatest sexual dynamo in the history of man-kind but having no ability to seduce women (e.g., fugly, no game, whatever it is). If you can't get them to the bed, you're talent is wasted.

 

[fourfif**]

Having said that I think these guys do show better MMA grappling - with MMA grappling entailing - gloves, not only no gi but no rashguard, stand-ups, strikes on the ground, vaseline getting on them, 5 minute rounds, etc.

Imho.

would you say dominating position is basically dominating in grappling in general?

 

[fourfif**]

I would agree with the Rickson quote. Calling it "wrestling" beating "jiu jitsu" is a bit misleading. The truth is that wrestling is a part of jiu jitsu, but it is often neglected.

agreed, and this idea of grappling = grappling in mma is why I quoted that post initially.

guys with great wrestling have a much more efficient means of getting top position, and are therefore more complete "grapplers."

unless they're guard game sucks, in which case it's a toss up.

 

[Gerbiljiujitsu]

it is one of the reasons that I really want to join a wrestling club when I get home.

 

[Galahad]

would you say dominating position is basically dominating in grappling in general?

Yes, definitely, that's why I think the guys mentioned in the post definitely showed better grappling.But in MMA. I don't think grappling in mma is the same as pure grappling, and mma striking is the same as pure striking and I'm able to separate the two.

 

[fourfif**]

it is one of the reasons that I really want to join a wrestling club when I get home.

that's awesome man, good luck!

I honestly HOPE that mma will help bring back or at least save wrestling programs that got wrecked after title 9

 

[fourfif**]

Yes, definitely, that's why I think the guys mentioned in the post definitely showed better grappling.But in MMA. I don't think grappling in mma is the same as pure grappling, and mma striking is the same as pure striking and I'm able to separate the two.

fair enough, absolutely.

I do think wrestling has shown it's benefits and why it should be considered a true martial art as well as a sport.

As far as combat grappling, wrestling alone is generally insufficient.

 

[Galahad]

I do think wrestling has shown it's benefits and why it should be considered a true martial art as well as a sport.

OH DEFINITELY! When I was in high school I used to argue with guys that didn't wrestle on the team that we would probably kick most people's asses. Didn't know about judo or bjj really at the time, and I argued we'd take boxers and kickboxer down.

The big kicker was when I told them Dan Gable would probably kill Bruce Lee.

 

[fourfif**]

OH DEFINITELY! When I was in high school I used to argue with guys that didn't wrestle on the team that we would probably kick most people's asses. Didn't know about judo or bjj really at the time, and I argued we'd take boxers and kickboxer down.

The big kicker was when I told them Dan Gable would probably kill Bruce Lee.

Imagine seeing Alexander Karelin in the first UFC! And we put the questions to bed in my school because we would invite all the muscle heads in the gym and the tough guys on the football team and anyone really, into the mat room for a good ol fashioned spanking.

 

[Mike Wilson Jr.]

yes, definitely, that's why i think the guys mentioned in the post definitely showed better grappling.but in mma. I don't think grappling in mma is the same as pure grappling, and mma striking is the same as pure striking and i'm able to separate the two.

qtf!

 

[Galahad]

Imagine seeing Alexander Karelin in the first UFC!

I'm honestly glad this didn't happen b/c he would have killed someone and MMA would have been banned forever.

And LOL about the football players coming to your practice!

 

[joe90210]

I think you mean wrestlers, not wreslting

 

[adoniscomplex]

lets be honest
frankies boxing won him the fight not his wrestling

and in between this two events -king mo got beat down (he was regarded as one of the best wrestlers in mma) lashley got beat down ( 2 time national champ )

and last night 5 of the fights were won by submission -something that is not involved with collegiate wrestling

i def think wrestling is a huge part of mma , and might be the best base
but i dont think at any point it will be this end all be all that some people make it out to be

 

[adoniscomplex]

And we put the questions to bed in my school because we would invite all the muscle heads in the gym and the tough guys on the football team and anyone really, into the mat room for a good ol fashioned spanking.

would you guys allow strikes ?
thats pretty funny if so

 

[Fedorzilla]

unless they're guard game sucks, in which case it's a toss up.

hard to say. It goes back to how good their wrestling is. Some wrestlers are so smooth at regaining the standing position, that they're almost never in a position to rely on the guard. One thing that comes to mind was the beautiful switch/standup that Sonnen pulled when AS got him on his ass. Sonnen sat to butterfly and immediately got the standup/sweep.

I suppose this was a "guard" maneuver in a sense, but it's wrestling based as well. This is a gray area perhaps. However, for so many wrestlers, they'll just get to turtle or otherwise stand up, unless they're facing an equal caliber wrestler or a BJJ guy with an unreal transitional top game.

 

[Ring>>Cage]

The Florian vs Maynard had a lot to do with the cage. The one time Florian was on his back away from the cage he stifled Gray's gnp with an active gaurd.

 

[KILL KILL]

wrestling is cool

 

[fourfif**]

lets be honest frankies boxing won him the fight not his wrestling

without his wrestling he would have been done when it hit the ground, and also without the threat of takedowns/attempts I think it would be a different striking match altogether as well, with quite possibly a different outcome.

and in between this two events -king mo got beat down (he was regarded as one of the best wrestlers in mma) lashley got beat down ( 2 time national champ )

that is true. seeing mo lose like that was pretty crazy.

i def think wrestling is a huge part of mma , and might be the best base

agreed

but i dont think at any point it will be this end all be all that some people make it out to be

also agreed. nothing ever is.