Wrestling 14-3 in Past Two Events

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by fourfif**, Aug 29, 2010.

  1. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/wrestling-reigns-supreme-14-3-past-two-events-1336545/

    One very solid BJJ player in Florian and one World Champion BJJ player in Penn just got beaten and essentially out grappled by a couple of wrestlers. Not quite sure what to make of it, just reposting a thread I found elsewhere that I thought would be good to see played out in f12.


    this was an interesting post so I'll ttt it.






    edit: I love wrestling, no doubt, but train in bjj and judo and respect all three arts equally. it's just a discussion about grappling.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2010
  2. Galahad

    Galahad Orange Belt

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    As someone from a wrestling/judo background who has now added bjj...

    I don't honestly agree with that assessment. If these guys had better jiu-jitsu they could go to bjj/sub-wrestling comps and win.

    Having said that I think these guys do show better MMA grappling - with MMA grappling entailing - gloves, not only no gi but no rashguard, stand-ups, strikes on the ground, vaseline getting on them, 5 minute rounds, etc.

    Imho.
     
  3. Fedorzilla

    Fedorzilla Brown Belt

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    I would agree with the Rickson quote. Calling it "wrestling" beating "jiu jitsu" is a bit misleading. The truth is that wrestling is a part of jiu jitsu, but it is often neglected. Penn perhaps would never be a great wrestler, but his TDD was enough in his own mind because he (at least historically) thought himself the best boxer around such that he'd never NEED to get a takedown. If it stayed standing, he'd win. If he got a knockdown, he'd take top position.

    It would perhaps be better to talk about someone having the better "bottom game." Most BJJ guys in MMA have a pretty good top game, if not great. However, guys with great wrestling have a much more efficient means of getting top position, and are therefore more complete "grapplers."

    Ultimately, if you have a great top game but can't get there, what good is it? This is like being the greatest sexual dynamo in the history of man-kind but having no ability to seduce women (e.g., fugly, no game, whatever it is). If you can't get them to the bed, you're talent is wasted.
     
  4. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    would you say dominating position is basically dominating in grappling in general?
     
  5. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    agreed, and this idea of grappling = grappling in mma is why I quoted that post initially.

    unless they're guard game sucks, in which case it's a toss up.
     
  6. Gerbiljiujitsu

    Gerbiljiujitsu Purple Belt

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    it is one of the reasons that I really want to join a wrestling club when I get home.
     
  7. Galahad

    Galahad Orange Belt

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    Yes, definitely, that's why I think the guys mentioned in the post definitely showed better grappling.But in MMA. I don't think grappling in mma is the same as pure grappling, and mma striking is the same as pure striking and I'm able to separate the two.
     
  8. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    that's awesome man, good luck!

    I honestly HOPE that mma will help bring back or at least save wrestling programs that got wrecked after title 9
     
  9. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    fair enough, absolutely.

    I do think wrestling has shown it's benefits and why it should be considered a true martial art as well as a sport.

    As far as combat grappling, wrestling alone is generally insufficient.
     
  10. Galahad

    Galahad Orange Belt

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    OH DEFINITELY! When I was in high school I used to argue with guys that didn't wrestle on the team that we would probably kick most people's asses. Didn't know about judo or bjj really at the time, and I argued we'd take boxers and kickboxer down.

    The big kicker was when I told them Dan Gable would probably kill Bruce Lee.
     
  11. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    Imagine seeing Alexander Karelin in the first UFC! And we put the questions to bed in my school because we would invite all the muscle heads in the gym and the tough guys on the football team and anyone really, into the mat room for a good ol fashioned spanking.
     
  12. Mike Wilson Jr.

    Mike Wilson Jr. Amateur Fighter

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    qtf!
     
  13. Galahad

    Galahad Orange Belt

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    I'm honestly glad this didn't happen b/c he would have killed someone and MMA would have been banned forever.

    And LOL about the football players coming to your practice!
     
  14. joe90210

    joe90210 Blue Belt

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    I think you mean wrestlers, not wreslting
     
  15. adoniscomplex

    adoniscomplex Orange Belt

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    lets be honest
    frankies boxing won him the fight not his wrestling

    and in between this two events -king mo got beat down (he was regarded as one of the best wrestlers in mma) lashley got beat down ( 2 time national champ )

    and last night 5 of the fights were won by submission -something that is not involved with collegiate wrestling

    i def think wrestling is a huge part of mma , and might be the best base
    but i dont think at any point it will be this end all be all that some people make it out to be
     
  16. adoniscomplex

    adoniscomplex Orange Belt

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    would you guys allow strikes ?
    thats pretty funny if so
     
  17. Fedorzilla

    Fedorzilla Brown Belt

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    hard to say. It goes back to how good their wrestling is. Some wrestlers are so smooth at regaining the standing position, that they're almost never in a position to rely on the guard. One thing that comes to mind was the beautiful switch/standup that Sonnen pulled when AS got him on his ass. Sonnen sat to butterfly and immediately got the standup/sweep.

    I suppose this was a "guard" maneuver in a sense, but it's wrestling based as well. This is a gray area perhaps. However, for so many wrestlers, they'll just get to turtle or otherwise stand up, unless they're facing an equal caliber wrestler or a BJJ guy with an unreal transitional top game.
     
  18. Ring>>Cage

    Ring>>Cage Purple Belt

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    The Florian vs Maynard had a lot to do with the cage. The one time Florian was on his back away from the cage he stifled Gray's gnp with an active gaurd.
     
  19. KILL KILL

    KILL KILL Gold Belt

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    wrestling is cool
     
  20. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    without his wrestling he would have been done when it hit the ground, and also without the threat of takedowns/attempts I think it would be a different striking match altogether as well, with quite possibly a different outcome.


    that is true. seeing mo lose like that was pretty crazy.


    agreed


    also agreed. nothing ever is.
     

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